[thebigspendur]

I just thought I would share some pearls or wisdom with all the japanese Straight fans out there who have interest in honing these things.

One of the members asked me if I would look at a vintage straight he had originally gotten so I said sure, assuming it was just a typical touchup job and of course you all know what what happens when you assume too much. So I got the thing and to my horror not only did it not have any edge but the bevel had gone bye bye. The thing looked like someone tried either using a kitchen sharpener, the electric kind or some 100 mesh diamond hone for one too many passes.

Now I have a Tosuke and I have an iwasaki and I've honed a few of them however bevel recreation is another story. I really didn't have a clue but as I thought about it some sobering things hit me. If I tape the edge because of the way the symmetry goes do I have to put differing layers of tape on each side? Unlike western razors where the spine is the part where you have to worry about hone wear with this on the convex side the entire razor is in full contact with the hone at all times so what about that? Also as I found out if you tape it the tape doesn't last but a few strokes and you need alot of strokes with this thing.

So the experiment began. I tried to be mindful of the recommended honing stroke ratio's and grit recommendations but as I painfully learned that all went out the window very quickly. So I started with the recommended hone, a 12K Kitayama and of course that is useless for bevel recreation though I thought maybe with a lot of pressure it might work. It didn't. So I fell back to the Belgian Blue. That didn't work either. So I fell back to the Norton 4K. Using the recommended honing ratio I had a very nice bevel on the concave side but nothing on the convex side. So to make a long story short I wound up treating the two sides of the razor as though they were two razors. Once the concave side had the great bevel I moved up to the Norton 8K and then the coticule and then .5 diamond pasted strop and then Cr0 pasted strop. That side of the razor shaved great. Then back to the Norton 4K on the convex side until I had the faintest hint of a bevel (which is the way they are) and then duplicated the rest of the honing routine as I had done with the concave side. Then I test shaved with it and it worked. A tad rough but a very close shave. Before I sent it out I gave it some more passes on the Cr0 and I guess it worked.

Is this the proper way to do it? I havent the faintest clue but it seemed to work. Oh and another problem was that the convex side had an area that was a tad lower than the rest. When I started the razor was matte and when I finished it was highly polished in places-most places. I don't see a solution to that. Taping is not practical and considering the hundreds of honing strokes I think I was able to keep the spine wear to a real minimum.

I guess I should have done a before and after picture but I didn't think I would be writing this then or that I would be successful.

So what did I learn? As with any honing project you have be resourceful and try everything you can think of and then some and be willing to throw out the recommended stuff sometimes. For normal touchups I would still do the recommended method but for more intensive stuff these razors can take alot of honing and still retain their symmetry. But that finish preservation, I still can't figure that one out.

[onimaru55]

Well done. Sounds like a good save.
I can't give any input on the honing but if you want to return to the matte finish: a sliver of Uchigumori or maybe Narutaki
stone under the thumb, a few drops of water and some careful rubbing should get you there. These are often referred to as Hazuya & Jizuya stones and are the final polish on Japanese swords.
Alternatively, just using Natural Japanese stones for honing should preserve the finish, they don't shine steel up like synthetics.
I can mail you some bits if you'd like to try.

[Paysbas]

Hello thebigspendur,

your experience with honing the japanes razor is like mine. After honing with the soft arkansas hone it was possible to shave the hair of my forearm.
So I started with my blue belgian hone. I think I need a lot of patience but more and more surface looks polished. But a couple of peaces aren't polished.
How did I hone? 25 times at the convex side, 2 times at the concave side. So it doesn't disturb the symmetrie. Wenn it looks polished, then about 12 times each side with turning over the spine. I learned this from someone from the german forum.
So far my experience. I will go on. The steel takes a lot of my faith because of its hardness.

With kind regards, Paysbas

[AFDavis11]

Nelson, what is the standard ratio for Japanese blades; 3:1?

[thebigspendur]

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Nelson, what is the standard ratio for Japanese blades; 3:1?

Yea thats about it though after this experience I'm starting to wonder if it really matters.

[thebigspendur]

Originally Posted by Paysbas

Hello thebigspendur,

your experience with honing the japanes razor is like mine. After honing with the soft arkansas hone it was possible to shave the hair of my forearm.
So I started with my blue belgian hone. I think I need a lot of patience but more and more surface looks polished. But a couple of peaces aren't polished.
How did I hone? 25 times at the convex side, 2 times at the concave side. So it doesn't disturb the symmetrie. Wenn it looks polished, then about 12 times each side with turning over the spine. I learned this from someone from the german forum.
So far my experience. I will go on. The steel takes a lot of my faith because of its hardness.

With kind regards, Paysbas

Your honing ratio's are off from the recommended ones however if you have to redo the bevel the normal ratios for general touchup and minimal honing are out the window. You have to hone until you get the result you need to get. As far as the uneven polished areas thats because with japanese razors the Convex side is in full contact with the hone at all times and any uneven honing will be really accentuated and/or the razor is not even and so it gets polished like that. Actually I have some foam polishing blocks I use for watch polishing which can be used to even the polish when your done if your looking for brushed or satin type polish finish.

[Paysbas]

Hello thebigspendur,

I read more times what you wrote but I heaven't seen what is the recommended ratio of strokes. Can you write me about the ratio of strokes?

with best regards, Paysbas

[thebigspendur]

Originally Posted by Paysbas

Hello thebigspendur,

I read more times what you wrote but I heaven't seen what is the recommended ratio of strokes. Can you write me about the ratio of strokes?

with best regards, Paysbas

Its about 3 to 1. More strokes on the concave side to fewer strokes on the convex side but thats for touchups and minor honing. If your doing some edge restoration I wouldn't worry about it. Notice I say about. I've learned that nothing is written in stone and like honing western razors people starting out follow pyramids and other rigid regimens but as you do more you adapt and its the same here. But thats the recommended ratio using a 12K Hone and back and forth strokes with considerable downward pressure on the hone.

[Kees]

How about taping the spine or use a metal U-shaped spine cover?

[thebigspendur]

Originally Posted by Kees

How about taping the spine or use a metal U-shaped spine cover?

the problem is on the convex side the entire razor comes in contact with the hone and you have to use some pressure as you hone. So you have to actually tape the entire razor not just the spine and that really changes the angle. I tried it and quickly got tired of changing the tape every few strokes, and you have to do a lot of strokes. Also the razor surface is usually not even which creates its own problems. Then because of the asymmetric sides do you tape say one layer of tape on one side and multiple layers on the other? It almost becomes a Rube Goldberg problem.

[Paysbas]

Hello thebigspendur,

I honed a couple of hours on the soft arkansas hone. The convex side is even after a couple of hours. I think this is important when I have to hone or to strop in the future. The steel is very hard and the convex side completely touch the hone. So I think I must hone like a wedge razor. The other concave side should be hone like a complete hollow razor. The concave side needs only a few strokes.
Now my Kiku Hiro razor looks good an the convex side is even. So I can go on on my Blue Belgian an my Thuringian Hone.
After the Hones the japanese razor becomes a Balsawood stropping. At first with a chomoxid paste, after these the natural balsawood side.
I'm sure this razor will be very good.

with best regards, Paysbas

[thebigspendur]

Sounds good. keep us informed how she shaves when your done.

The blue is a very slow stone you might try it with some slurry at first and then switch to plain water. It might go a little faster.

[Paysbas]

About taping, I think with taping the convex side will not get even because the tape isn't hard enough to keep the pressure of honing

With best regards, Paysbas

[thebigspendur]

Originally Posted by Paysbas

About taping, I think with taping the convex side will not get even because the tape isn't hard enough to keep the pressure of honing

With best regards, Paysbas

I don't think taping is an option with these razors because you have to tape the whole razor and like you said the tape will not last but a very few strokes.

[kevint]

why do you need to bear down so heavily?

[Paysbas]

Hello kevint,

I dont push so fast. But the angle it too big.

[moviemaniac]

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I don't think taping is an option with these razors because you have to tape the whole razor and like you said the tape will not last but a very few strokes.

Also, taping it would completely screw the edge as you have different angles on the two sides of the razor. You would need to tape the wedge-side with one piece of tape and the other side with two pieces in order to get the angle right again.

[Paysbas]

Hello Moviemaniac,

I think taping makes the angle to big, it will be very difficult to get a real sharp edge at the wedgeside of the japanese razor. In this point my razor has a full wedgeside. The advantage without taping is an even wedgeside. This will make stropping easier. When the wedgeside isn't even, it will be more difficult with stropping. With my other wedgerazors I made the experience that they are sharp a very long time when I hone and strop as I described before.

With kind regards, Paysbas

[thebigspendur]

Originally Posted by kevint

why do you need to bear down so heavily?

Its just the way it is with these razors. Probably the steel. If you tried normal edge maint. honing with just the weight of the razor you would be spending a lot of time at the hone and I'm not sure you would accomplish anything. You do need to apply pressure. Thats actually the true skill in honing Japanese razors. knowing exactly how much much pressure to exert to get the result you want for the given circumstances.

[kevint]

The one Japanese razor I have was seriously improperly honed. It was a nice one. Exactly what I wanted- thinking of having made... heavy. It's actually the heaviest razor I own. I returned a used tosuke for the same reason that was not near the weight of this one. I thought it'd give me the chance to decide if my 70mm spec was out of line. However its appearance has become so disturbing to me that I will probably ask Mizuochi-san to repair it for me.

All that to say I haven't honed a kamasori much at all. Even though they never seem to be nearly as flexible as a full hollow isn't there still going to be some distortion of the edge if you press too hard. As well the amount of pressure seems like it would depend on what kind of hone you are using - how well it cuts very hard steel. Not to mention foundation prep.

I'm not arguing just seeking further learning. Thanks BigSpender for sharing your experience.