[OLD_SCHOOL]

I have been toying with an idea to loan out a small cheapish Japanese hone, so that people can try one and see what they think, before buying a larger one.
I guess there would need to be a short time frame so there isn't too long of a waiting list for people.
I am thinking that a member pay $x + shipping to have the hone for say 10 days, then return the hone and get a full refund of $X. Then it could go to the next person and so on. This will give people an idea of what they can expect from a natural Japanese hone.

Now I don't really know how to implement this, so I am looking for ideas and suggestions.

There are one or two issues with this idea.

#1 If someone rents it and decides they want a bigger one, the problem is the bigger one may respond differently, since they are natural hones.

#2 If the hone becomes damaged for whatever reason, it will obviously need to be replaced. Hence the deposit idea

Again, this is just a thought/idea, so nothing is set in rock. (pun intended) I will gather your thoughts and opinions over a few weeks, see if this is something people will like and if so, I will start an independent thread for people to put their name on and we will work in order of the first in first served basis.
I guess I will need a mod on side, who will be willing to update said thread to indicate who has had (pun intended) and who has the hone, this will give others an idea of how long they will need to wait. Oh yeah and of course I would need to find such a hone.

I look forward to your responses.

[Bruno]

You might want to limit this to people who have been here for some time, and who have a specified number of posts or experience level.

As happens with the giveaways, some people only register in order to sign up for the giveaway, and then are not heard of again. Sending a japanese natural to just about anyone will run you the risk of losing it for good. A similar scheme has been used in the past for razor pass-around schemes, and there were some negative experiences.

Also, giving a high grit hone to a complete honing newbie is pointless, because you have to have a decent edge to begin with, or you'll never get truly sharp edges.

Also, you might want to have people ship it directly to each other (if you trust them with lapping) because that would save a lot on shipping.

[OLD_SCHOOL]

Thats why I was thinking of the deposit idea. But it wouldn't hurt to have criteria, I have that already when offering discounts.

Thanks for the input Bruno

[JoshEarl]

This is a cool idea. I agree with Bruno about shipping point to point within the US or any other country/continent instead of bouncing it between continents. That can get expensive really fast. Maybe try to line people up to minimize international shipping.

A deposit would help cover you in case someone decides to be a jerk...

I say it's worth a shot.

Josh

[netsurfr]

Sounds like a great idea. To follow up on the passing from person to person idea, individuals that were on a prearranged list could simply pay the security deposit to each other as the stone was passed. Then the deposit could be refunded to the last person that returned the stone to you.

[OLD_SCHOOL]

That is a very good idea indeed. I'm all for that.

One thought though, in the event that the hone is damaged by a member, how would I go about resolving that? We may end up with one of "those" people, who tries to deny it with another member and it becomes an issue.

Just a "what if?" but I want both, myself and other members to have peace of mind.

[netsurfr]

In addition to the deposit, you could require participants to insure the hone for the full value during transit by whatever means. This would cover transit issues and any potential blame game problems that might potentially happen.

[OLD_SCHOOL]

Originally Posted by netsurfr

In addition to the deposit, you could require participants to insure the hone for the full value during transit by whatever means. This would cover transit issues and any potential blame game problems that might potentially happen.

Transit, is shipping right? Or whilst someone has the hone?

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by netsurfr

In addition to the deposit, you could require participants to insure the hone for the full value during transit by whatever means. This would cover transit issues and any potential blame game problems that might potentially happen.

But that is not always possible.
Belgium and the US have no agreement on shipping insurance, making it impossible for me to insure any shipment to the US.

The only alternative would be to ship FedEx or UPS, but that would cost 50 - 70 euros, making it insanely expensive.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

That is a very good idea indeed. I'm all for that.

One thought though, in the event that the hone is damaged by a member, how would I go about resolving that? We may end up with one of "those" people, who tries to deny it with another member and it becomes an issue.

Just a "what if?" but I want both, myself and other members to have peace of mind.

I would also ask for a certain level of experience, not only because itis pointless to use such a hone if you cann;t get a decent edge, but also because honing experience implies that you know how to handle a stone.

What you could also do is this: Ask 10$ in advance from anyone who is interested, and compile a list of who has to send it to whom.
You send it to the first person on the list, who uses it for a week and then uses first class postal shipping to the next person. It is not insured, but first class shipping is reliable in my experience.
You allow each participant to lap it if needed, and at the end of the road it comes back to you.

If the stone should disappear or be damaged, the persona who already paid there 10$ will have to suck it up. They are the ones wanting to participate, so they should carry that small risk.
You are the one allowing them to use the stone, so the risk should not be on your head.

If the stone eventually makes its way back to you, then you come out ahead, but imo there is nothing wrong with that, and the stone has been flattened n times after all.

To minimize the risk of 'losing' the stone, you only allow people who have are known and active members. Other forums generally use number of posts + time since registration for that purpose.


Just some ideas...

[OLD_SCHOOL]

Originally Posted by Bruno

What you could also do is this: Ask 10$ in advance from anyone who is interested, and compile a list of who has to send it to whom.
You send it to the first person on the list, who uses it for a week and then uses first class postal shipping to the next person. It is not insured, but first class shipping is reliable in my experience.
You allow each participant to lap it if needed, and at the end of the road it comes back to you.

If the stone should disappear or be damaged, the persona who already paid there 10$ will have to suck it up. They are the ones wanting to participate, so they should carry that small risk.
You are the one allowing them to use the stone, so the risk should not be on your head.

If the stone eventually makes its way back to you, then you come out ahead, but imo there is nothing wrong with that, and the stone has been flattened n times after all.

I think I might be reading this the wrong way. Are you saying that the $10 advance from each participant would be non refundable? I guess that would make sense coz at the end I might end up with a wafer thin stone. Correct me if I am mistake.

Originally Posted by Bruno

To minimize the risk of 'losing' the stone, you only allow people who have are known and active members. Other forums generally use number of posts + time since registration for that purpose.


Just some ideas...

I understand that. I might just do that too.

[randydance062449]

Your idea is gracious and would help a bunch of people. What I can see happening is that the hon would not make it way back to you for a long time, possibly 1 year? If you allow 1 week for mailing and one week use for each person the for 26 people it would take 52 weeks to make that circuit. Are you willing to go without a hone for that length of time?

Just this past 3 days I have been using my Japanese natural hones. One of the most interesting is also very inexpensive. The Aoto. It is rated, by one website anyway, at 2000-3000 grit. The cost is approx $65 for a very large stone would could be cut in half and still have a large size. I used this stone after 1000 grit sandpaper and before the Norton 4K. It does a very good job of setting up the bevel for the 4K. But, I have only used it on 2 razors so far.

One of the other stones is made for gouges and I used the back side of that stone. It worked well and is not to expensive. It could be cut in half, lengthwise, for a narrow hone.

Here is a link
The Japan Woodworker Catalog - Natural Stones

What I am suggesting is starting with some inexpensive but very useful stones. All of us need good stones to remove minor nicks and to set the bevel. These would be a good starting point.

Just my two cents,

[ProfessorChaos!]

I think this is a fine and generous idea. If you have read my comments on Old_School's hones, you already know that I think they are as good as it gets. The bees' knees. Not only would this expose more people to the hones, but allow those who can't or don't wish to afford one the chance to enjoy its results long after the hone has been shipped to the next user.

I do like the idea of charging a "smallish" rental fee and limiting participation to well known/respected members. Each does a small part to mitigate risk on O_S' part. Additionally, if the participants are all reasonably skilled with a hone, it might be reasonable to expect that the hone will only be lapped when absolutely required.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

I think I might be reading this the wrong way. Are you saying that the $10 advance from each participant would be non refundable? I guess that would make sense coz at the end I might end up with a wafer thin stone. Correct me if I am mistake.
.

Yep. If you have a lot of participants, you have to assume that the stone will be damaged in the process, or at least significantly thinned. So you will have to be recompensed for it.
You sign up people in advance, and have them pay the non-refundable 10$.

This means that you have the money in advance, and the risk to you is low to none.
You might get the stone back afterwards, but it will be a lot thinner, it might have scratches.

The participants pay 10$ for the privilege of joining in the pass-around, and when they actually get it, they have to pay for shipping to the next person. If the stone is lost, then that is part of the risk they accept in advance.

You also tell each person whom to send it to next, so you are in control the whole time, and you can track who is in posession of the stone at which time.

[Jimbo]

What about using one of those Narutaki hones like the ones I can get hold of? Or were you thinking of something in the higher grit range?

James.

[OLD_SCHOOL]

I intend to use a finishing hone, the likes of which I sell on my site, except with smaller dimensions.

[OLD_SCHOOL]

I had a thought about the $10 advance thing. Lets say the hone goes missing and only a dozen have tried it. Perhaps it was lost in transit (uninsured), someone broke it accidentally or worst case scenario someone stole it. I wouldn't feel comfortable keeping the money of the ones that never got to try it, whether they agreed to the terms or not.

I guess thats why I thought the deposit idea was better, the last person who had it would be responsible.

Apart from that, is there no one thats interested in this idea? All that have commented so far have a Japanese hone.

[kevint]

I believe the most appealing aspect you have mentioned is the smaller size. Cost is the speed bump most everyone encounters when buying rocks. What approximate size are you considering for rent?

A thin one with enough length and width for a razor - even if on the small end of the range; I would think to be much more appealing to most folks with some experience on other types of fine hones, rather than a big one. Such a piece would still last a lifetime at least.

You could still offer it as a rental, though perhaps with two slightly different stones allowing the user to choose between them. Hopefully to buy one and return the other to you. Having them returned to you for a fresh lap if needed might be better than global voyage to be lapped and re-lapped unnecessarily.

In the end a full deposit is the same as a money back guarantee- especially welcome assurance on the larger, most expensive stones. Which is the way it should be imho. Unfortunately there are some who will take advantage. I have seen other "loaner" programs end quickly and quite abruptly; as it seems the crooks are some of the first ones in line.
It's a good idea though. Best of luck.

[jwoods]

maybe you would have to require a credit card in the members name and address that would cover the cost of the hone. and limit the time to 2 days, if you cant finish hone all of your razors in 2 days you dont need a japanese hone you need a shrink, you would have to get all of them ready. except the 1 you shave with to use it on. even 1 day would be enough but 2 is better. then ship it to yhe next person on the list. give a $10 donation for use of it also