[Johnny J]

I did my monthly hone job on my beloved W&B. The first shave was so shockingly mediocre, I thought, "I must not have honed enough to get the bevel back." But then I felt it with my thumb & thought, "Goddamn, it FEELS sharp. Let's not jump to conclusions. I'll try one more shave before I go back to the hone." Guess what? BBS. The shave of kings.

Why is the first shave so bad? It's almost like it's "too sharp" or something...instead of gliding smoothly across my face, the edge wants to skip & dig in. But all it takes is one shave (plus 50 laps on the strop, of course), and that nasty, uncivilized edge smooths right out.

Anyone out there with a microscope know what's going on? Would it help to do a double- or triple-round of stropping after honing? At the moment, I only do 10X Cr02 and 50X plain leather after honing, the same as I do before any other shave.

[gssixgun]

Although you might get many different opinions of the use of linen strops, I think that is what yer missing here.... Try adding 50 laps on linen, then up your stropping on leather to 75-100 right after the honing and paste, and see if that doesn't smooth the 1st shave out....

If not try the plain newspaper trick for like 30-40 laps

[kelbro]

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Try adding 50 laps on linen, then up your stropping on leather to 75-100 right after the honing and paste, and see if that doesn't smooth the 1st shave out....

This works for me. Great shaves right off the hone. With a 15x magnifying glass, you can see that the bevel has been burnished and I think that's what does it.

[Johnny J]

Bevel burnishing, eh? I can't see that with my 10X lupe (came to me by way of my grandpa, who was a jeweler). As for linen...I have an old strop with a linen side, but it's got some fairly aggressive abrasive compound on it. I'll need to clean all that crap off it first. I recall seeing some threads about cleaning old linen strops. Time to search the forum...

[JimmyHAD]

If I am getting a harsh feel on the first pass or just not smooth enough I find that 5 roundtrips with Chrome Ox on a piece of felt is magic.

[Russel Baldridge]

You probably won't be able to get all of the abrasive compound out of that strop, the general rule is that once a surface is pasted, there's no changing it.

But yes, more stropping is the key for me. I've never used pastes with any regularity and find that ~100 laps on a good leather strop smooth out any edge that is fine enough to be considered for a test shave.

A finer finishing stone couldn't hurt, but isn't at all necessary.

[DwarvenChef]

After chrome leather I goto my hanging strop for at least a 60 count. No isses with rough shaves if I did my part at the stones

[xman]

Originally Posted by DwarvenChef

After chrome leather I goto my hanging strop for at least a 60 count. No isses with rough shaves if I did my part at the stones

Dito that. Sounds to me like you should play around with the post honing stropping to solve your issue.

X

[OLD_SCHOOL]

Could it be, that a slight wire edge was formed? The first shave knocked that edge off, then the stropping smoothed things out.

P.S What happened to your bevel? That part struck me as odd, thought one only needs to set a bevel once?

[kevint]

What you didn't say was if this happened last month as well or before, or what hone you finished on

I think the additional cro did it on the second round.

[randydance062449]

I agree with the idea that you probably had the beginnings of a wire edge. The solution is as mentioned, a whole bunch of stropping.
Also remember that in between shaves the edge rusts a bit so the steel is brittle and the second round of stropping would have removed the now rusted wire edge.

Your key phrase was "skip and dig", that is how a wire edge performs.
Very uncomfortable.

[sebell]

Although you might get many different opinions of the use of linen strops, I think that is what yer missing here....

+1

Although my shaves do get better after a couple, I still get a great shave right
off of the hone with a good amount of strokes on the linen and leather.

- Scott

[Johnny J]

Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

P.S What happened to your bevel? That part struck me as odd, thought one only needs to set a bevel once?

I'm convexing it into oblivion with frequent touch-ups on Cr02 (I have a harsh beard, plus I'm a maniac about getting perfect shaves).

For starters I'm going with the wire-edge theory. I re-honed the blade just so I could start from scratch again, but I buggered the experiment by being lazy & not doing enough laps on the fine hones, so of course I got a lousy shave. But here's my plan of attack:

1) Hone properly

2) Do 20 laps on Cr02 and 100 laps on plain leather after honing to see if that smooths it out.

3) If (2) fails, clean & re-wax the linen strop & see if that helps. Stay tuned...

PS: one thing that frustrates me no end is that the perfect shave is SO DAMN ELUSIVE! I get it & lose it & get it & lose it... The blade seems to reach its perfect state about 3 shaves before it becomes so convexed I have to hone it again. Maddening.

[loueedacat]

I used to get wire edges all the time and used chrome ox before each shave. I've now abandoned pastes entirely and just use coticule, canvas and leather and am doing much better and not need anything but strop and canvas between shaves.

I think you may be really overusing the chrome ox, but I'm too new at this to opine. I think if you get the honing right you should be able to skip the chrome ox and you won't get so many wire edges and won't be messing your edge as much as it sounds like you are doing.

Again, I know very little but this sounds like an error I used to make and I was always cutting myself up and now I don't.

[JohnP]

Originally Posted by loueedacat

I used to get wire edges all the time and used chrome ox before each shave. I've now abandoned pastes entirely and just use coticule, canvas and leather and am doing much better and not need anything but strop and canvas between shaves.

I think you may be really overusing the chrome ox, but I'm too new at this to opine. I think if you get the honing right you should be able to skip the chrome ox and you won't get so many wire edges and won't be messing your edge as much as it sounds like you are doing.

Again, I know very little but this sounds like an error I used to make and I was always cutting myself up and now I don't.

To be honest, your process sounds very similar to mine. I go straight from the coticule to the leather, then for subsequent shaves linen then leather. The only difference is sometimes I also hit a few passes on a barber hone as well.

John P.

[Johnny J]

OK, I'm in the process of soaking all the crud off my linen strop. While I'm waiting, I decided to try stropping on plain newspaper as a substitute. It turned my razor into a butter knife. Worst shave of my life. I'll never do that again! Hopefully the linen will be better than that.

[Bart]

Originally Posted by loueedacat

I used to get wire edges all the time and used chrome ox before each shave. I've now abandoned pastes entirely and just use coticule, canvas and leather and am doing much better and not need anything but strop and canvas between shaves.

I think you may be really overusing the chrome ox, but I'm too new at this to opine. I think if you get the honing right you should be able to skip the chrome ox and you won't get so many wire edges and won't be messing your edge as much as it sounds like you are doing.

Again, I know very little but this sounds like an error I used to make and I was always cutting myself up and now I don't.

Strange, I thought stropping on chromium oxide would rather remove a wire edge instead of creating one. I would also think that if one knocks off a wire edge with stropping or some other form of backhoning, the razor is left without a good edge and needs at least some re-honing.

Johnny, I know you do 10X Chromium and 50X leather right after honing, but what do you do before that? And what do you use for the Chromium part? (a paddle? or a hanging strop?)

Bart.

[Johnny J]

Originally Posted by Bart

Johnny, I know you do 10X Chromium and 50X leather right after honing, but what do you do before that?

The following progression of barber hones:
A really coarse Swaty (around 1K grit)
Cushioned strop hone
Gem hone
Lithide hone

Depending on the razor, it will take around 20 laps on each (maybe 10 on that coarse Swaty b/c it's so aggressive). I use a jeweler's lupe & that feeling of suction to decide when to stop. I use the hones dry.

Originally Posted by Bart

And what do you use for the Chromium part? (a paddle? or a hanging strop?)
Bart.

Loom strop which was coated with Cr02 on one side from the factory.

PS: the Swaty is a freak hone, probably from a bad batch. But it serves a purpose for me: it has replaced 1K sandpaper & glass as my go-to bevel-setter.

Edit: I just re-honed after the newspaper stropping disaster, and instead of finishing with 20X Cr02 + 50X plain, I finished with a double-dose (100 stokes) of plain leather. The results are quite good. Once my linen is cleaned up, I'll try doing maintenance with the linen instead of Cr02 and maybe I can get by without the Cr02 altogether.

[loueedacat]

when you feel like splurging you might try a coticule. I laugh giving that advice because it's the only hone I have but it really is a nice experience and a differnt way to come at it. And you can do 100s of laps and not overhone.

[Bart]

Originally Posted by Johnny J

The following progression of barber hones:
A really coarse Swaty (around 1K grit)
Cushioned strop hone
Gem hone
Lithide hone

Depending on the razor, it will take around 20 laps on each (maybe 10 on that coarse Swaty b/c it's so aggressive). I use a jeweler's lupe & that feeling of suction to decide when to stop. I use the hones dry.

I can't comment on those hones much, because I'm not familiar with them. Are they meant for dry use? I ask because on many hones, dry use causes a significantly coarser edge. If I use a DMT1200 dry, I can clearly see at 40X magnification that it leaves the edge with a irregular dented pattern, than when I use water for lubrication.

If you use that loom strop real tight, those 10 laps Chromium Oxide may be to little to really smooth out the edge. With a flat stropping surface, the CrO needs to abrade a fairly large surface. With some slack in the strop, it only works on the tip of the bevel, which is a much faster abrasive action, at the same time introducing a convex shape at your cutting bevel.

I think your initial bad shave was caused by not enough smoothening on the CrO. The 10 extra laps and more leather stropping from the second shave simply remedied that.
I remember from a previous thread, that the convex approach works very well for you. You won't hear me criticizing on that.

I would try 20 laps CrO before the first shave, and also experiment with using water or lather on your hones. I believe it could make a real difference.

Bart.