W&B Honing Difficulties

Fortytwoblades · 08-03-2008, 01:01 AM

I have an old wedgie W&B Diamond Edge with a heavy smile that I've been restoring using Spyderco hones. My problem is I've been unable to make a lot of noticeable progress on it. I understand that the ceramics are real slow cutters and that wedgies are also slow work, but I've put days of work in and still no luck putting a trued-up edge on them. I've done the marker trick and all but the immediate heal are true. With other smiling pieces I've done I was able to catch hair off of the medium stones, but not with this one. Do I just need to keep going? Is it really THAT slow?

netsurfr · 08-03-2008, 03:16 AM

Not sure what the grit of the stones you are using are...
Just off hand, it sounds like you have not quite established the bevel for the razor. Once you establish the bevel, then you can move up through the finer grit hones.
Ususally, I can establish the bevel on a 1200 grit hone. However, sometimes I need to drop back to a much coarser hone; this is typical of blades with harder steel. Very rarely, I have had to drop back to a DMT8C to get the bevel established.
So, what I am saying is the answer is: "It depends."
Wish I could be there to help a bit but feel free to ask lots more questions...

Sticky · 08-03-2008, 03:25 AM

I've always thought that my Spyderco Medium was a fairly fast cutter, and I'm used to using diamond hones most of the time.

I would just keep going until I passed the marker and TNT at the same time on the medium, paying extra attention to the heel. After that I would move on to the finer grits.

It sounds like you may have additional issues (like maybe a warped or bent razor). It shoudn't take days to set the edge even if your smilie was an extremely thick full/true wedge.

EDIT: if you are using the Fine or Ultra Fine Spyderco to set the edge; then, "Yes, it might even take weeks."

Fortytwoblades · 08-03-2008, 06:09 AM

Thanks guys. It seems a pretty straight blade, but the bevel does need to be set on the heel. However, even on the toe of the blade I haven't been getting the results I'm used to for some reason. It may just be that I need to keep at it. It is a true wedge, so it's a TON of material to remove...it just seemed MUCH more difficult to hone than others I've done, but the closest to a wedge I've done before is a frame-back, so it is a new one for me. Super hard steel, too. I had borrowed a dmt stone from a friend (I don't own anything that coarse in a stone since I rarely need them) and even that took forever when I was removing some nicks in the edge. I guess they called it a "Diamond Edge" for a reason!

randydance062449 · 08-03-2008, 02:04 PM

When I hone a razor with a definite "smile" I use the rolling X stroke with a pronounced heel leading angle of about 45-55 degrees. The greater the "smile"or the more the blade is tapered then the greater the angle. I have also been known to use a finger on the blade to keep it in contact with the hone.

If your still trying to establish a bevel I suggest you switch to a 1000 grit sandpaper. It is faster because there are more abrasive grains per square inch. If you have pics that would help.

gssixgun · 08-03-2008, 04:08 PM

Good thing this is in the advanced honing topics section because what Randy just told you about definitely belongs here.....
The 9 part series that Heavyduty posted the video's of, has a quick demo of the rolling X stroke in there that would be worth watching....
On those heavy smiling wedges I always tape the spine, if your going at this without tape, I will admit here and now your more of a MAN than I, thats a lot of hard steel to remove to get the bevel established.....

Fortytwoblades · 08-04-2008, 06:01 AM

Yeah, I'm doing it without tape. I fully realized it would take a lot of work to accomplish this way, but not quite THIS much work. I'm familiar with the rolling x stroke, and have used it on my other vintage pieces (even the straightest among them was a slight smile at the toe) with great success, but I think it's just that the blade angle was all wonky when I got it.

If I were to use 1000 grit sandpaper, how would I go about keeping that flat? I've tried stretching it flat over a stone before, but the paper would "bubble" slightly over the surface of it. Any fixes?

holli4pirating · 08-04-2008, 06:18 AM

I use a Spyderco medium as my coarsest hone, and I find that frequently cleaning the stone helps lots. I run mine under a faucet and rub it with my fingers whenever I feel reduced feedback.

I also change the orientation of the hone about halfway between rinsings. I find that especially helpful with smiling/warped blades where I'm doing a rolling X. That ensures that I'm honing on a less clogged portion of the stone.

I've not noticed the same clogging on my fine Spyderco, but that doesn't get quite as much and removes far less metal.

Kees · 08-04-2008, 06:36 AM

I just wonder if the bevel makes good contact with the hone. That is often the problem when you do not seem to make any progress. Have you done the bevel marking test? That usually tells me why it isn't going as I wish it were.

With smiling razors your might consider using a narrower hone as well.

randydance062449 · 08-04-2008, 12:30 PM

Cleaning the hone frequently and using a narrow hone work well.

Sandpaper... I use the wet/dry stuff, cut it to fit the hone but a little longer, soak it in water, face down, with a weight (hone) on top of it ( that helps to remove the curl), wet the stone, lay the paper on top and grab the long end, start honing slowly until the adhesion is good.
The longer I soak the paper the better it works and stays flat. Typically overnite.

Works for me, not always perfect, but ok,

I am still trying to find an aggressive 1000 grit hone ( not Norton, to slow, not diamond, to harsh) to replace the sandpaper.

Fortytwoblades · 08-04-2008, 01:14 PM

Thanks for all of the help, guys!

As I mentioned earlier, the only place not passing the marker test is a small section of the heel of the blade. It's possibly more of a problem of stone clogging and slow work, I'm guessing at this point. As far as a narrow hone goes, has anyone ever tried using the side of a Spyderco hone for that purpose? Is it still flat like the face of the stone is? When using the face I just focus on using the very rightmost section of the stone (almost the edge of the stone) and it's done great before.

Thanks for the tip on the sandpaper, randy!

kevint · 08-04-2008, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randydance062449

Cleaning the hone frequently and using a narrow hone work well.

Sandpaper... I use the wet/dry stuff, cut it to fit the hone but a little longer, soak it in water, face down, with a weight (hone) on top of it ( that helps to remove the curl), wet the stone, lay the paper on top and grab the long end, start honing slowly until the adhesion is good.
The longer I soak the paper the better it works and stays flat. Typically overnite.

Works for me, not always perfect, but ok,

I am still trying to find an aggressive 1000 grit hone ( not Norton, to slow, not diamond, to harsh) to replace the sandpaper.

The 1000 shapton pro is rather awesome

randydance062449 · 08-04-2008, 02:20 PM

sandpaper....one more thing.....keep it wet!!!! ....Then it will not curl up on you.

Kees · 08-04-2008, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randydance062449

sandpaper....one more thing.....keep it wet!!!! ....Then it will not curl up on you.

Randy,

Why wet sandpaper? For Thuringers I use ordinary sandpaper that can only be used dry, works a treat, lies flat all the time, and even if it doesn't it does not matter if it is slightly pushed up at one end when you flatten the hone as I usually round the sharp edges anyway.

randydance062449 · 08-04-2008, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kees

Randy,

Why wet sandpaper? For Thuringers I use ordinary sandpaper that can only be used dry, works a treat, lies flat all the time, and even if it doesn't it does not matter if it is slightly pushed up at one end when you flatten the hone as I usually round the sharp edges anyway.

Hello Kees!,

I am referring to using the sandpaper as a substitute for a hone. I use wet/dry sandpaper because then there is no buildup of swarf in the sandpaper, it does not get clogged up.
I am not referring to lapping hones with sandpaper.

Kees · 08-04-2008, 03:06 PM

Sorry Randy, I misread your initial post on the sandpaper. I was thinking of sandpapering the side of the hone to make it suitable for honing the smily razor!

English · 08-04-2008, 05:55 PM

You can buy double sided tape that is really useful to hold down wet and dry sandpaper. One source is the tape they use to hold the rubber handles on golfing irons.

If you do this, you can use the paper either wet or dry as it doesn't curl at all.

Unlike Randy, I prefer to use the paper dry. It's just my preference. I find I get a grippier edge quicker. I find that grit size between 1000 and 1500 usually does the job.

However what Randy say about swarf is very true. I find that 10 heavy return passes is all I get before I need to change the paper. I get three fresh hones out of a standard piece of wet and dry. This said on a hollow ground razor, five return passes usually does the job for me. With a full wedge and no taped spine, it can take 30 to 40 passes. With a taped spine maybe 10 passes will do it and for or a very hard edge, 15. But it takes as many passes as it takes. If using dry paper, just remember to change the paper when you see it filling with the filings. When I have used the paper wet, I usually find the surface wears off after about 40 passes and I find the removal gets slow after the first ten passes anyway. It feels smoother with water but for me at least not as effective.

You should always shake and dust off a new piece of wet and dry before use to ensure there is no foreign grit on the surface. Sometimes just one piece of foreign sand is enough to put a scratch groove in the razor edge. But you can feel foreign material with your hand very easily.

One more trick, after you have finished on your hones.

Move onto chromium oxide on a flat bed hone. Or use newspaper.

Finally, when you strop, lay the strop flat on a worksurface edge and then strop as normal.

You may want to try the last two suggestions first if you think you have a good V on the blade already. It might be the missing bit in your honing process.

holli4pirating · 08-04-2008, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fortytwoblades

Thanks for all of the help, guys!

As I mentioned earlier, the only place not passing the marker test is a small section of the heel of the blade. It's possibly more of a problem of stone clogging and slow work, I'm guessing at this point. As far as a narrow hone goes, has anyone ever tried using the side of a Spyderco hone for that purpose? Is it still flat like the face of the stone is? When using the face I just focus on using the very rightmost section of the stone (almost the edge of the stone) and it's done great before.

Thanks for the tip on the sandpaper, randy!

I've used the edges of barber hones before, but I couldn't say about the Spyderco as I have the pocket ones as opposed to the bench stones. I don't think using it would be a problem. It should be easy enough to test to see if it's flat; pencil all over the side and rub with a stone you know is flat. You do have to be more careful though, esp if it needs to be lapped; a smaller surface tends to be harder to keep flat.