[Chris L]

As the title suggests, I want to stress that MY GDLP has issues; I have no reason to think or certainly no information to support any assertion that ALL GDLP's have the issues I'll describe here. I'm in the process of dealing with Harrelson Stanley, U.S. distributor for Shapton. My GDLP as of today is being Priority mailed back to Harrelson. I'm looking for an exchange, refund or a potential upgrade to the DRLP (unlikely that I'd want to pay the difference to upgrade to this even if Harrelson would offer this as an option).

In summary, my GDLP after using it lightly for just under six months has degraded in performance dramatically. What used to take a few minutes in re-lapping my Shapton Ceramic on Glass stones now takes upwards of 15 minutes or more.

Sadly, viewing the surface of the GDLP under 40x magnification appears to reveal the reason for the performance degradation. Approx 80% loss of diamonds. That's huge. Here are some pictures that have been emailed to Harrelson:

This first picture is a close up of one of the edges of the GDLP taken last week. The edges of the GDLP remain very sound; In addition to lapping my Shapton ceramic stones on the GDLP, I also lap my small number of Coticules, Thuringians, Belgian Blues and an occasional barber hone. These stones are all smaller than the Shapton plates and the middle of the GDLP has seen more use than the edges. I would expect a small loss of diamonds in the center vs. the edges then, based on my usage.


This next pic is a picture of the center of the GDLP. Almost no diamonds left. You see the occasional black fleck (diamond) and the nickel substrate.



Bummer. I viewed each picture on my screen and drew an imaginary line straight across each picture. Then I did a non-scientific count of the diamonds that the "line" ran across from left to right. I then divided out the numbers and came up with the approximated loss of diamonds in the 80% range if that makes sense.

I debated on posting this until AFTER this issue was brought to whatever resolution it will come to, but after talking with another longtime SRP member, he suggested I post my issues now.

I lap as directed by the Shapton website (basically back and forth with some diagonals thrown in) and, I lap lightly. I do NOT use excessive force or even use force when lapping. I keep the stones on the GDLP and try to let the diamonds do the work. I know how to lap.

Here's what I've found out from Harrelson that I did NOT know about the GDLP:

• The GDLP's diamonds bonded to the nickel substrate are actually found in several layers. More than one "coat" of diamonds and nickel. I believe this since when I view the surface of the GDLP under magnification, I can barely see the tips of diamonds barely peaking out from the nickel surface; some are almost completely covered by the nickel and therefore have no effect when lapping.
• Sometimes hardened slurry can coat the diamonds reducing performance. Soaking the GDLP in water overnight is recommended to soften the slurry then.....................the following is recommended much to my surprise:
• A Shapton Lapping Disc for $19.95 is recommended to actually lap the surface of the GDLP, nickel, diamonds and all! Harrelson explained that the ceramic disc is extremely coarse and removes metal and the diamonds. The idea here is that by lapping the GDLP's surface, you are able to expose the unused diamonds encased in a lower layer of nickel. Essentially hopefully refreshing the GDLP's surface.

I have issues with this and would NOT be comfortable lapping the GDLP surface. It's not even the principal of having to buy an additional accessory, it's the fact that if I manually lap GDLP's surface, IMO I can kiss the .5 micron flatness goodbye. By how much? Who knows?
I did not post this to discourage anyone from buying a GDLP and my greatest hope is that I got one that was defective and was an anomaly. Still I wanted to make you guys aware of this and also ask if others with GDLPs have had any issues even close to what I describe (basically a noticeable degradation in performance).

I've followed the instructions that came with the GDLP in that I have never lapped any stone coarser than the Shapton 500 grit stone. The instructions make reference several times to the fact that the GDLP was created to lap the Shapton Ceramic on Glass stones but nowhere in the instructions does it mention that lapping any other TYPE of stone is prohibited.

Chris L

[Russel Baldridge]

It's good to hear about things like this because it'll show what kind of customer service they have.

I am also suprised that they would recommend lapping the lapping plate. Periodic resurfacing at the factory would make more sense than passing the work on to the customer.

Thanks for sharing the story in progress as well, that way other guys can check their own plates and add info as necessary.

Hope it gets resolved for you.

[gssixgun]

Thanks for posting this Chris, I will be watching this thread with continued intrest......

[Chris L]

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

I am also suprised that they would recommend lapping the lapping plate. Periodic resurfacing at the factory would make more sense than passing the work on to the customer.

I know the DRLP (Diamond Reference Lapping Plate) has a trade in option where the factory sends out a factory resurfaced (to the same specs as the original) DRLP. No such trade in animal exists for the GDLP. The website says the DRLP can be worn out after 2-3 years of "hard use".

Chris L

[JimmyHAD]

Geez Chris, I hope this is as you said an anomaly. I went for the GDLP and so far so good. I haven't lapped anything under 1000 with it. I am not sure how much more or less I have used mine then yours but mine is still hitting on eight. I have the pro shapton stones but I don't think there is much of a difference. I hope Harrelson makes it right for you.

[IsaacRN]

Im very sorry to hear your trouble but do thank you for posting. Im getting ready to buy my GDLP by the end of the month.

[Chris L]

Originally Posted by JimmyH-AD

Geez Chris, I hope this is as you said an anomaly. I went for the GDLP and so far so good. I haven't lapped anything under 1000 with it. I am not sure how much more or less I have used mine then yours but mine is still hitting on eight. I have the pro shapton stones but I don't think there is much of a difference. I hope Harrelson makes it right for you.

It makes me feel good knowing that you're lapping stones other than the Ceramic on Glass stones, Jimmy. I've reread the GDLP instructions and nowhere do they say you CAN'T use the GDLP to lap other kinds of stones (as long as they're over 500 grit). I rarely lapped my 500 grit ceramic stone since I have not had much use for it. The large majority of my lapping has been 4K grit or higher.

Chris L

[kelbro]

I have seen similar results with my DMT 8" Coarse. DMT's question/response was 'Will it still scratch a glass surface? Yes? Then there are still diamonds and it is still doing its job.' Well, it does still scratch glass but it does not cut as fast as it did before.

Hopefully Shapton's response is better.

[JimmyHAD]

Originally Posted by Chris L

It makes me feel good knowing that you're lapping stones other than the Ceramic on Glass stones, Jimmy. I've reread the GDLP instructions and nowhere do they say you CAN'T use the GDLP to lap other kinds of stones (as long as they're over 500 grit). I rarely lapped my 500 grit ceramic stone since I have not had much use for it. The large majority of my lapping has been 4K grit or higher.

Chris L

I still have my D8C and I use that for coarse stuff. A friend of mine said that Shapton suggests only lapping their stones. I figure that is because they can't be sure of what the grit is on another manufactuer's stone. I have also lapped coticules, and Eschers and no worries so far.

The re-manufactured lapping plate that Shapton offers costs $325.-00 so it ain't a bargain. The steel backing being the more expensive component is for flattening planes. Harrelson said that if you drop it can go out of true so the GDLP is probably the best bet of the Shaptons for lapping. I imagine if the diamonds don't last in the glass plate they won't be any better in the steel. Let's hope this is a defective plate and not the norm.

[randydance062449]

OK, no tool is perfect and the limitations of this hone are now being seen.I also hope that this is an anomaly. Time will tell.

Since Shapton has a work around they must have expected this but a better response would be to offer a resurfacing at the factory. It would instill a lot more confidence that the job was done right and the flatness preserved. The flatness of these hones is the main selling point for the guys in the straight razor world. I hope Shapton realizes this.

Just my two cents,

[Russel Baldridge]

Originally Posted by kelbro

I have seen similar results with my DMT 8" Coarse. DMT's question/response was 'Will it still scratch a glass surface? Yes? Then there are still diamonds and it is still doing its job.' Well, it does still scratch glass but it does not cut as fast as it did before.

Hopefully Shapton's response is better.

I think that all lapping plates undergo a "break in" period, all of my DMTs have, and they lose some of their initial cutting strength because the inconsistencies in the diamond surface (extreme peaks) have been smoothed out. I have used my DMT 8C to lap everything; natural stones, ceramic hones, regular manmade waterstones, barber hones, Rc 66 steel, carbide, and probably more items I can't remember, and haven't noticed a significant decrease in performance after the initial break in.

But as with any product, faulty specimens are bound to occur.

I do agree though that they should have been more supportive of you as a customer, they probably figure it's cheap enough to be replaced when worn out, but that's not a very good business stance.

[kevint]

lapping the lapper is a subject we don't speak of in polite society. Every lapping plate will fall out of tolerance as it is used, I think. I'll tryto talk my machinist wife into checking my dmt.

My diasharp lost a few tiny patches when I first started with it. Nothing like what you have there Chris.

The natural stones should be no problem. Somehow I feel barber hones will come up in your discussions. I don't know much about barber hones but they seem way hard- the wear in the center vs. uniform wear across does not help

A diamond stone should just get finer and finer, not strip away imho. The 120 disk predates the glass by several years so it's not as if it was developed for resurfacing gd lp.

[Philadelph]

Originally Posted by kelbro

I have seen similar results with my DMT 8" Coarse. DMT's question/response was 'Will it still scratch a glass surface? Yes? Then there are still diamonds and it is still doing its job.' Well, it does still scratch glass but it does not cut as fast as it did before.

Hopefully Shapton's response is better.

I just wanted to throw in that I had a bad initial experience with my first DMT. Don't know why, but it lost a patch of abrasive and I was not happy. They took it back gladly and replaced it. I had a great customer service experience with DMT. Anyway, since then I have come to expect a change in the plates over time, but I have not had the same problem again. Sorry this is slightly

[Chris L]

Originally Posted by Philadelph

I just wanted to throw in that I had a bad initial experience with my first DMT. Don't know why, but it lost a patch of abrasive and I was not happy. They took it back gladly and replaced it. I had a great customer service experience with DMT. Anyway, since then I have come to expect a change in the plates over time, but I have not had the same problem again. Sorry this is slightly

I too had a problem with a new DMT D8E 1200 grit. There was a small cluster of raised metal that must have been a factory defect. Razor edges did not like that raised area and it remained after "breaking in the hone". I also had an excellent response from DMT. They promptly sent out a replacement D8E and included a really neat cleaning kit for my trouble. Also , but hey, I created this thread so.....

Chris L

[Bart]

Dear Customer,

We hereby wish to inform you that upon your failure to properly lap the the lapping plate for lapping the lapping plate that you should use to lap the GDLP, all warranty is voided.

Sincerely,

the general bogus manager.



I sympathize with your situation, Chris. Hope it gets resolved soon.

Bart.

[Chris L]

Originally Posted by kevint

Somehow I feel barber hones will come up in your discussions. I don't know much about barber hones but they seem way hard- the wear in the center vs. uniform wear across does not help

I would have no problem with the GDLP instructions stating and it being common knowledge (disseminated on the Shapton website for example) that ONLY Shapton Ceramic on Glass stones should be lapped on the GDLP. Although the instructions state that the GDLP was designed to be used with the Ceramic on Glass stones, it does NOT say you can't use it to lap other stones or that you can't use it to lap certain types of stones even if those certain types of stones are higher in grit than 500.

IF the GDLP could only be used to lap the Shapton Ceramic on Glass stones, I would consider it to be less versatile and at a high price point, I would think of it differently than I do now.

Chris L

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Chris L

I would have no problem with the GDLP instructions stating and it being common knowledge (disseminated on the Shapton website for example) that ONLY Shapton Ceramic on Glass stones should be lapped on the GDLP. Although the instructions state that the GDLP was designed to be used with the Ceramic on Glass stones, it does NOT say you can't use it to lap other stones or that you can't use it to lap certain types of stones even if those certain types of stones are higher in grit than 500.

IF the GDLP could only be used to lap the Shapton Ceramic on Glass stones, I would consider it to be less versatile and at a high price point, I would think of it differently than I do now.

Chris L

Considering what I've done with (or rather, to) my 55$ DMT8C, it would be terribly disappointing if the DGLP couldn't handle coticules and barber hones.
It doesn't cut as fast anymore as when I originally got it, but it still laps stones without any problem.
Even that log splitting axe that I am sharpening doesn't really harm it.

[bevansmw]

I think some wear is given with any lapping plate or stone by the nature of the action involved with lapping. Unfortunate that so much degradation happened, hopefully it gets resolved well.

I also have noticed my D8C has a bald spot in one corner now, I think partly due to me not knowing that the glass side of the shapton stones wasn't the side to hone on ... the DMT did, however, completely flatten the glass bottoms of my shapton ceramic on glass stones when I lapped them, unwittingly.

[Chris L]

Ok guys, here's an update:

Harrelson Stanley called me after receiving my GDLP today.

He's going to soak it and lap some ceramic stones on it this weekend to check its performance. According to him, the initial observation is that the stone looks as it should after being broken in as it has.

He's also going to most likely take a ceramic disc to it to lap the GDLP. I told him I was concerned that this would alter the flatness. He explained and stressed that the Shapton .5 micron flatness claim is the flatness of the FLOAT GLASS substrate and not the lapping surface given the fact that each diamond will be slightly different than the other.

I've always used very light pressure with my lapping plates, DMT or Shapton letting/expecting the diamonds do the work. Harrelson said that when he laps on the GDLP he (direct quote here) "puts his shoulders into it". He says that using the GDLP, he can true even severely used ceramic on glass stones in less than 30 seconds. He is going to mail my photos to Shapton in Japan for viewing. Harrelson says his understanding of the GDLP manufacturing process is that the edges of the stone do have a higher concentration of diamonds than the middle or "field" (his reference) of the GDLP has.

Harrelson said he has a beverage cooler that he keeps filled with water, and usually has about 10 GDLPs soaking and submerged continually in that water with no ill effects to the GDLP. He does this to prevent slurry from hardening on the GDLP surface.

He also said that hot water will not harm the GDLP. He said he's actually contemplated putting his GDLP in the dishwasher but has not done it yet, and he stressed that he doesn't think that Shapton would endorse such a practice, but given that the hot water in a dishwasher wouldn't melt glass, diamonds, nickel or rubber, it most likely would not harm the GDLP.

That's the current update for now.

Chris L