[Seraphim]

OK, I'll admit it. I am a paste user.

I tried to kick the habit the last few weeks, but what can I say...I'm weak

I had read all about how using pastes is considered as "using a crutch". I also had taken a look under the scope at a number of my edges (some of which can be seen in this thread...) , and I got all compulsive about having some rounding going on with my use of pastes on my beloved hand-crafted (using a nice flat Levi canvas belt from Sears $8.95) canvas pasted strops. My theory being that I should work to get a nice linear geometry to my edge for some reason or other

So I dilligently set about resetting the bevels (some of these pics are in that thread as well), and honing them up as best I could with my diamond lapping film array- 9um, 6um, 3um, 1um, 0.5um, 0.1um with a precision granite plate. I also made a balsa chrome ox paddle strop and shaved away. However, I recently realized that my shaves were pretty good, but I had to do a lot more blade buffing to get a really close BBS shave, and it wasn't quite as comfortable as it had been.

So, I said "screwit, I'm going back to the strops/pastes!". Now then, my edges off the films were pretty good, and they passed the HHT fine. But after a gave the razors a going over with my pasted hanging canvas strops: one side-Dovo red paste (rumored to be ~3um), 1um diamond paste , and the last one is the crayon style chrome ox. At this point the edge is not just HHT, but dropping the hairs without any sound or resistance.

I just finished my first shave off of the pastes in a coupe of weeks, and it was/is noticeable closer, smoother, less irritation, and required less passes than previously. Really, much, much better.

Most of the pics I post of egdes are all at a standardized 200x, but that is just for the sake of comparrision. I can zoom in all the way up to 1000x on that scope, and at 500-1000x there was a fair bit of micro-jaggedness to the lapping film/paddle strop edge that is not there at all after I go through my paste routine.

Another thing that I saw, is there is a polarizer filter I can use that is very effective at showed deformation/curvature along the edge. And if I honed the razor too much on the lapping films, the edge definitely got to be too fine. I could see the very edge start to get wavy, apparently very thin. I found that leaving it at about the 1um level was about the best balance of edge refinement vs. too fine an edge.

With the pasted strops, I can use the same filter, and it will show that yes, the edge is getting a bit rounded over, but it remains straight and smooth, and from the HHT is actually even much sharper.

The balsa paddle strop didn't get me to this place either, I had to revert to my hanging canvas strops.

So, not only am I a paste user, but I do it on hanging strops, thereby rounding my edge geometry, and all that stuff that sounds disastrous...

And it gives me a fantastic shave!

[littlesilverbladefromwale]

I have to admit I finish off with Peeks metal polish on 3 sheets of newspaper that I tape to my coticule box lid. Just a tiny bit of it spread very sparsly.
After I've done about 15 laps, the bevel is like a mirror. I got a closer shave last night with a Fontain 6/8+ than I have had before.
The only edges I've used that have been this good at removing hair are ones honed by Blueprinciple, a rather good UK hone pro.
I'm off to France tomorrow (Euro-Disney), I'm taking my 5/8 Kropp that I have honed with metal polish, it cuts arm hairs without moving them!
I'd love to know what grit size Peeks is, I doubt the manufacturer has even bothered to find out as it is not a lapping paste.

[zepplin]

I have resorted, also, to using pastes with all of my hone jobs. The edges seem better. - even though my finisher is a Nakayama. I applied Chromium Oxide to a "Genuine Linen" strop of Tony Miller's and I haven't looked back. I love it, - and I love the shaves it produces. I will do anywhere from 8 to 25 laps on the pasted strop at the end of my honing process, depending on the quality of the edge. I feel if it's there (the pasted strop), and it improves the shave, so what if the edges are a bit more delicate!

If I were to hone a razor for someone else, though, and they did not live close by, then I probably wouldn't use the pasted stop as part of the honing process, but I would certainly suggest to them that they use it for their "touch ups".

Steve

[kevint]

I swore of pastes in that one thread of JJ's thread and never looked back.

[gssixgun]

There is a problem with using pastes???????????????When did that happen??? I feel so left out sometimes

Hmmmmm maybe there is a problem with the incorrect use of pastes ???

[kevint]

I don't think there is a problem. My choice is philosophical in nature.

[gssixgun]

Originally Posted by kevint

I don't think there is a problem. My choice is philosophical in nature.

No offense intended Kevin,
I was kinda joking around...
(Hmmm maybe we need to have dwesell add a emote for that)

[kevint]

joking around; me too-

[Russel Baldridge]

That's great Craig!

All that matters is that you find your own preferred style, and if that's paste, then by all means paste away!

(that just leaves more stones for us archae-philes )

[netsurfr]

I personally would not be without my green paste.

[littlesilverbladefromwale]

Here is a question for you gentlemen. The metal polish I use as a sharpening paste is called Peeks. Queenie uses it ! God bless 'er.................!
It is powder/baby blue in colour (US=color)
Whats the abrasive in it?
BTW It doesnt improve the edge on My Cornwall Co, made in the USA French point razor???????????STRANGE.....It works on all my others?
M

[English]

I'm a great believer in setting a good bevel at the start.
When I look through a 10 X loupe I see a great "FLAT" V shape.

The next check point is when I feel a blade going blunt. Usually when I look through the loupe I see a curved bevel.

Time to put the V back.

Now what you do in the middle can be with hone or pastes or with linen or strop but loss of a V edge will kill the comfort and sharpness.

But I can guarantee you looking at edges under high powered magnification will not help you at all.

It won't even tell you why, one hone is smoother than another, or why one paste is smoother than another.

V equals sharp.
U equals blunt.

[kevint]

I wonder if a slightest bit of rounding is not the difference between those who feel a blade is too harsh, too sharp and a more comfortable feel.

[Seraphim]

Originally Posted by English

I'm a great believer in setting a good bevel at the start.
When I look through a 10 X loupe I see a great "FLAT" V shape.

The next check point is when I feel a blade going blunt. Usually when I look through the loupe I see a curved bevel.

Time to put the V back.

Now what you do in the middle can be with hone or pastes or with linen or strop but loss of a V edge will kill the comfort and sharpness.

But I can guarantee you looking at edges under high powered magnification will not help you at all.

It won't even tell you why, one hone is smoother than another, or why one paste is smoother than another.

V equals sharp.
U equals blunt.

But what I found was that it did matter what they looked like.

Small, tiny teeth to the edge=less comfortable shave, not as close a shave

Smooth as can be edge=easier on the face, and whisked away the whiskers.

I don't intend to monitor all of my razors edges each and every time I hone them, but I did/do want a point of reference for what is going on with the edge for a particular honing progression, HHT feel, etc. Overall going to the scope just adds to overthinking what's going on, and getting compulsive about things. But it does have it's place as a reference.

And I'm not refering to a U shape, but more of a pointed arch, like a gothic arch from a medievil church or something.


Apparantly this is nothing new, as a quick search shows up that this is a common bevel type for Japanese katana. (thus the kanji noted above...)

My new modus operandi is that since I maintain my edges vis a vis a flexible medium with some give (ala leather strop), to best match that geometry, perhaps I should hone it that way too (ala pasted hanging strops)

[onimaru55]

Seraphim, I was thinking about this just recently - you have convinced me to try it.

I see where you're coming from. I have sharpened/polished a few production katanas and can attest to the sharpness of a convex edge. It is also a stronger profile & as the sharp edge is supported by more steel, may be good for those razors that tend to microchip.

[English]

Seraphim,

Point take. I'm wrong again. My apologies.

I'll have to increase my magnification.

[Bart]

Seraphim,

I like your thinking, and like to share what little experience I have with using pasted strops.
I've used Chromium Oxide on a loom strop quite a lot. I've found out two different ways of using it. The first is tightening the strop real taut and taking light laps. It polishes the edge a degree further, but does not produce significant additional sharpness. Allowing a bit more slack to the loom strop and putting a slight bit of pressure on the razor, convexes the edge, gaining additional sharpness. It's easy to overdo and create an edge that looses it's level of keenness with one or two shaves. (On a side note, I still believe the mere fact that the edge is a result of backhoning, makes it less durable, but if I recall correctly, we disagree about that)
I also found that it takes considered concentration to keep the curve in the strop constant, throughout the successive strokes. If not, the edge is rounded rather than convexed, and I have noticed the difference while shaving.

I'm wondering what might happen is someone would intentionally create a set of matching curved balsa strops, in order to rule out the possible inconsistency with the use of hanging and/or loom strops.


Best regards,

Bart.

[Lt.Arclight]

I think Seraphim is 100% on the money. Smoother shaves result from smoother edges.You can make a scary sharp edge,that will cleave hairs all day long-on a coarse hone,but that same edge would turn your face into hamburger.

I just received a Joe Chandler razor. It came with the sharpest edge I have ever touched to my face. It is MIRROR smooth and SCARY sharp yet it gave me a shave that ranks with the best I have ever had-AND that was the first time I used it.

Under 10x magnification,there are no serrations to speak of. As a result, I am definitely going to reevaluate my honing. I "thought" I had experienced a sharp edge-until TODAY.

[kevint]

Lt. you can normally see serrations at 10X?

Bart I have already made a set of curved balsa strops, hrmmm only thing is they are 3x3 inch or so.
(sorry to keep mentioning those delightful little devils)

they use the natural cup of the board, perpendicular to the edge they are pretty flat. I don't think it is the concavity of the strop, but the pressure that you are noticing the difference- make it tight with pressure and loose with a light touch an I believe you find the pressured edge sharper. Don't go a put your shoulders into to prove me wrong. with a loose loom and pressure i would assume the pressure was not too much or the strop would have rolled up and dubbed the edge(i think)

A convex bevel, Moran edge, katana hiraniku, blended bevel/ whatever you want to call it is not by geometric principle sharper than a thin flat bevel. The following statement is not meant to be all inclusive...but, typically the use of convex bevel is intended to strengthen the edge by putting a little more meat down low as compared to typically flat. Both could theorectically meet a zero edge dimension only the conves blade has an increased cutting angle.

A good comparioson might be to put finest paste on a hard surface and see how that compares to a pasted (soft substrate leather) strop.

[riooso]

Seraphim you use 0.1 micron? How does it compare to 0.25? Is the edge durable enough to get a weeks worth of shaves out of a good blade. With the 0.25 I get about 7 days with my beard and then my shaves become "GOOD" not my usual "GREAT". I am at a crossroads here and was hoping to come up with a stone that would be as good as the 0.25 paste but I know deep down that it will probably never happen. I strop about 100 times off the 0.25 paste and it just gives me such kickin shaves that I can't see that off a stone. When I do the math there is just no stone that comes close to the 0.25 grit. I was hoping that it is just more than math.

Thanks,
Richard