[CaptMdnght]

Hello everyone. Its been awhile since i have posted. I was wondering if anyone has tried the new Escher-thurigen hones offered by Escher Water Hone - Thuringian Sharpening Stone . If so, how do they compare with the older Eschers?


Regards,
Jim E.

[holli4pirating]

Wow, thanks for sharing the link. If the stones are good quality, those seem like some very good prices. I'd also love to hear if anyone knows anything about them.

[OLD_SCHOOL]

I thought this was interesting and somewhat amusing.

[quote][Its extraordinary fineness and hardness is not met by any other natural stone — 10,000 to 12,000 grit. /QUOTE]

I can think of a number of people who would disagree with that statement.

[JimmyHAD]

Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

I thought this was interesting and somewhat amusing.

I can think of a number of people who would disagree with that statement.

I am curious about this statement in his description,"The Escher is NOT recommended as a final hone if you have used the natural Belgian garnet stone in advance. We are often asked about this combination use and can, at best, offer the advice that Belgian hones produce an edge without burrs, therefore that edge is already drawn to a more ideal finish, not gaining any advantage using the Escher".

I imagine a lot of knowledgeable people would disagree with that?

[CaptMdnght]

Originally Posted by JimmyH-AD

I am curious about this statement in his description,"The Escher is NOT recommended as a final hone if you have used the natural Belgian garnet stone in advance. We are often asked about this combination use and can, at best, offer the advice that Belgian hones produce an edge without burrs, therefore that edge is already drawn to a more ideal finish, not gaining any advantage using the Escher".

I imagine a lot of knowledgeable people would disagree with that?

Jimmy, I do disagree with those statements myself. I do own a old Escher and also own the blue and yellow belgian coticules. i was asking if anyone has knowledge of these hones so that I could recommend one to a friend on a budget. That is if they do indeed hold up to being similar in quality as the old Eschers.


Jim

[gugi]

With so much incorrect and misleading information by the seller, I would not be willing to be gambling with my money. There are old blocks of thuringian stones that are being cut into hones these days, but Kees and others who sell such honed occasionally have noted that often there are inclusions and they need to inspect each stone individually and return quite a few.
As far as the fineness as with any natural stone it depends on the particular piece, but the consensus seems to be that the new ones are not quite as fine as the old ones. Whether it's good for your friend, or not, only he can tell and only after he tries it.

Oh these are NOT Escher, just as if make a coffee it's not Starbucks.

[CaptMdnght]

Originally Posted by gugi

With so much incorrect and misleading information by the seller, I would not be willing to be gambling with my money. There are old blocks of thuringian stones that are being cut into hones these days, but Kees and others who sell such honed occasionally have noted that often there are inclusions and they need to inspect each stone individually and return quite a few.
As far as the fineness as with any natural stone it depends on the particular piece, but the consensus seems to be that the new ones are not quite as fine as the old ones. Whether it's good for your friend, or not, only he can tell and only after he tries it.

Oh these are NOT Escher, just as if make a coffee it's not Starbucks.

Gugi, You have a very valid point. Looking on fleabay now to see if there are any decent hones out there.


Jim E.

[JimmyHAD]

I also have old Eschers in Blue, Blue Grey and Light Green. I think the one labeled light green is a yellow green but whatever....... I have a Thuringan that is a Mueller's and it is a good stone. Not as good as the old ones but good. Don has a couple of vintage Eschers in the classifieds. Not for someone on a budget but they are there.

[JimmyHAD]

Originally Posted by CaptMdnght

Jimmy, I do disagree with those statements myself. I do own a old Escher and also own the blue and yellow belgian coticules. i was asking if anyone has knowledge of these hones so that I could recommend one to a friend on a budget. That is if they do indeed hold up to being similar in quality as the old Eschers.


Jim

Based on my experience I also disagree with the statement but I haven't been at it long enough to be confident in my assessment. I have gone to a Blue Grey Escher after a Coticule with many razors and have had good results.

[Jimbo]

There was some discussion here about these a little while ago.

$39 Eschers

James.

[English]

I have the $130 hone that you refer to in the advertisment.

It comes from this man in Germany.

MST - Müller** Schleiftechnik

You need to select "Neue Produkte" on the left of the home page.

MST however only sell to agents and not direct to the public.

First let me say it is the best finishing hone I have ever used. It imparts a sharper edge than a yellow coticule and a much smoother edge. It works in and around the 10,000 to 14,000 grit level whilst a yellow coticule in my experience works in and around the 6000 to 10000 grit level, depending on with or without slurry etc.,

I totally disagree with the agents comments about not using it to follow a coticule.
This is exactly what I do. I bought it and tried it after using my coticue and was blown away with just how good it is. After you have finished with the coticule, the slurry on the Escher turns dark with the extra polishing this hone imparts. The hone with just water adds another level of polish.

I don't know what you mean by old eschers. This stone has been in the ground for centuries, how old do you want it to be. Just because something was mined fifty years ago doesn't make it better. Why should it?

As to color, it sounds from the descriptions on the internet sites that it varies from green to blue gray.
Mine, the larger hone is lightish green and the slurry is creamy green. It is softer than a coticule and a very dense material. It gives great feedback in use.

Anyway, you now know from somebody who actually owns and uses one that it is fantastic. It is also very reasonable in terms of price. They won't be around long it would appear if you believe what MST say on their web site. Anyway, mine is a keeper as they say. It doesn't however replace the yellow Coticule, it takes off from where the coticule finishes.

The other thing, is that many are truly satisfied with a coticule followed by chromium oxide and then a strop. In fact I find that process to be perfectly adequate. So you could say that the escher is totally unnecessary. For me however it is another level of refinement before hitting the chromium oxide. But boy the edges are a shiny mirror finish and feel no sharper but oh so smooth.

[thebigspendur]

Yes age does matter because the rock the eschers are mined from come from a vein and as the vein is played out the quality of the material begins to degrade so the older stuff is better. Same as the Japanese stones mined many years ago which are better than what is being produced today.

Personally, I have a coticule and a vintage escher and I find the two to be about equal. There are some razors that seem to prefer one over the other but I would never use one then the other. My coticule is definitely at about a 12K. The blue belgian is closer to 6k

[OLD_SCHOOL]

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Same as the Japanese stones mined many years ago which are better than what is being produced today.

Japanese mines have been closed for 40+ years, AFAIK, at this point in time there are no talks of reopening any of them.

[gugi]

Originally Posted by English

Anyway, you now know from somebody who actually owns and uses one that it is fantastic. It is also very reasonable in terms of price.

Many of us have used these stones. I've had close to 10 thuringian stones (Including Mueler) and I've used every single one of them. There are differences and I would say that I personally prefer my vintage Eschers (meaning the only thing that it means - mined and selected by Escher & Co), as I feel they are a bit finer.

Indeed when a stone is being mined is irrelevant to how it cuts, yet whether you've depleted the best vein 60 years ago, or you're yet to discover it can be debated ad infinitum with little gain.

My understanding is that the mines are currently defunct and the stones come from blocks which were mined over 50 years ago and are now only being cut to smaller pieces. Again it this is true, whether those blocks were not cut back then because they were of lesser quality, or just because the process from mining to selling is actually a whole pipeline, that can be a whole other fruitless discussion.

Based on my very limited experience (10 or so coticules and as many thuringians) and my conversations with other members the only definitive test is actually trying out the stone. I am not going to be speculating on grits as the only fixed grit stones I've used are DMTEF and Norton 4/8k, but I very much like the edge off a coticule and the one off an escher is comparable and sometimes I may like it silghtly better. However I am limited not by the stones but by my honing skills and I am pretty certain the same is true for most people here.

[CaptMdnght]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

There was some discussion here about these a little while ago.

$39 Eschers

James.

James,
Thanks for that link. The quest continues it seems :-)


Jim E.