Presharpened Razors and too many complaints

Ben325e · 09-17-2008, 04:06 AM

Hey guys - I've noticed lately a bunch of posts in the newbie section where guys are totally complaining about all the presharpened 5/8 or 6/8 Dovos they've bought from this place or that.

I know that for your personal razors, you hone this way for razor x, and that way for razor y, because that's what the individual razor *needs*. But, I also don't think that the in-house honemeisters for the various retailers are sitting around with all sorts of Spyderco hones, Chinese 12k's, barber hones, shaptons, nortons, kings, nakayama, naniwa, thuringan, coticules, tam o'shanters, and who knows what else saying "Hmm.... now what does this brand spanking new Dovo need??....."

I would assume that they are sharpened in larger quantities, and that each razor would be taken through pretty much a consistent honing progression. I would expect that if I bought 20 presharpened razors, that they should all be identically sharpened, otherwise you get dissatisfaction between what would appear to be identical products - as long as they are all from one vendor.

So, that said, Can anyone enlighten me as to what the *generic* honing progressions for the different places are? I.e., classic shaving does this, SRD does that, etc.

This way, whenever someone comes on and casts doubt on the actuality of their razor being presharpened, we can have a better answer. We can say, "Oh, classic shaving? Yeah they finish that on a Shapton 16k and Chromium oxide.... if you aren't getting a smooth shave it's your own dang fault.... " Or something similar.....

(If you are a new guy who has recently complained of this, please don't feel like I am singling you out - many people before you have lodged the exact same complaint)

OLD_SCHOOL · 09-17-2008, 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben325e

So, that said, Can anyone enlighten me as to what the *generic* honing progressions for the different places are? I.e., classic shaving does this, SRD does that, etc.

Can't tell you the honing progression but Classic shaving uses Lynn's services as does SRD which is owned by both Lynn and Don. So there should be consistency there.

Lt.Arclight · 09-17-2008, 05:55 AM

Just remember that if you even now the EXACT procedure they used. And in my personal experience-EVERY razor is different. Even 2 exact models of the same brand. Each requires feel and experience. Honing is an ART-not a science. If it was,all could follow a strict set of instructions and get the same results.

That said, all FACES are different. What you may consider a comfortable blade-might be unacceptable for me,my technique and my beard.

Pre-sharpened razors help novices get CLOSE. Much closer than an out of the box razor. I have purchased these razors and have been very satisfied-but NOT ONE have been EXACTLY suited to my needs. Some I have actually completely rehoned-others I just had to strop on leather-others I stropped on a diamond pasted balsa strop.

Consistency comes from CNC machines.If you need a "part" made-consistency and accuracy can be guaranteed with todays technology. Honed razors, at least IMHO, cannot be consistent-just by their nature.

I think we all have thought we could get by with a sharp razor and a strop-at least for awhile. But there are many roads leading to the same destination and when it comes to Str8's this has proven to me over and over again. IF the PERFECT razor was a reality-this would be one boring site.

Russel Baldridge · 09-17-2008, 05:56 AM

That'd be a great question for the store owners.

I don't know the exact method of any of the distributors, but I'd bet that if there isn't a name given for the guy doing the honing, then the razors are just given a few quick passes over rotating abrasive discs and really aren't ready to be shaved with.

gssixgun · 09-17-2008, 06:31 AM

I'll take a stab at this one, in general for sharpening for other people's razors........

First off the hones, and or progressions are irrelevent... A razors edge has a limit, it can only get so sharp (hopefully one of the numbers guys will tell us how thin that really is) once the given razor gets to it's limit, that's it the stones are done.... We usually take to smoothing that edge next, with a combination of pastes, the most common is a .50 Cr finish, perhaps with .50 Diamond before that.... Stropping comes next, heck we (SRP members) can't even agree on what's right here, some swear by linen some swear, that you shouldn't use it except occasionally....We all agree that leather should kiss the blade before the blade touches our face but we can't agree on how many laps that should be (anywhere from 5-200)
See the problems here for the honemiesters ??????

So what to do???
You hone the blade, to the absolute best of your ability, and use what polishing pastes you feel is best for that steel, IYHO, you strop it up, how you think it should be stropped, you test shave, you clean it, re-strop it, oil it, and send it to the new owner......

Kees · 09-17-2008, 07:41 AM

Dovo claims their razors are shave-ready out of the box which they aren't. Some vendors sell them without additional sharpening as shave-ready, so you have to ask the vendor specifically what they mean by "sharpended", shave-ready etc.

The other thing is: shave-ready is not the same for everyone. I have bought razors from members who claimed theirs were shave-ready: some were but many weren't for me. So different users have different needs sharpness-wise.

Presuming the honemeister used a flat, at least 2" wide hone you should be able to resharpen the blade on your own hone using the X-pattern without too much difficulty. Some razors are very smiley and need a narrower hone. If the honemeister used a narrow one and you resharpen it on a 3" wide Norton you may find that heel or toe may be difficult to reharepen while the middel of the cutting edge gives no problems.

Philadelph · 09-17-2008, 05:04 PM

Why doesn't someone who has a great interest in what all vendors do call and ask them?

I'm sure they would answer. If their answer is "each razor gets a unique treatment" then they should at least tell you who it gets that treatment from. Then you can compile a list and post it here. Ask if the razors are all honed in the same fashion too, cause that might be important to some.

gary haywood · 09-17-2008, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kees

Dovo claims their razors are shave-ready out of the box which they aren't. Some vendors sell them without additional sharpening as shave-ready, so you have to ask the vendor specifically what they mean by "sharpended", shave-ready etc.

The other thing is: shave-ready is not the same for everyone. I have bought razors from members who claimed theirs were shave-ready: some were but many weren't for me. So different users have different needs sharpness-wise.

Presuming the honemeister used a flat, at least 2" wide hone you should be able to resharpen the blade on your own hone using the X-pattern without too much difficulty. Some razors are very smiley and need a narrower hone. If the honemeister used a narrow one and you resharpen it on a 3" wide Norton you may find that heel or toe may be difficult to reharepen while the middel of the cutting edge gives no problems.

I have been having that problem on my norton the middle of my blades get real sharp but the heel and toe take some honing they all ways seem to be last to reach the hone unless i i use a slight rocking motion may be a narrow hone would solve that problem.

Navaja · 09-17-2008, 06:25 PM

The "shave-ready" feature increases the price or a razor by $20, weather is new or used.

Ben325e · 09-17-2008, 07:58 PM

I suppose I should also add that I have no doubt that the prehoned razors ARE actually honed. I feel that it is typically an issue of stropping, preshave, or technique when people have problems with prehoned razors. I'm in no way trying to further the doubt cast upon classicshaving, SRD, or any other distributor.

Tony Miller · 09-17-2008, 09:41 PM

Okay, from a vendor. I used to sell pre-honed razors and have the "inside scoop" on other major players who do as well.

I originally honed all the razors I sold one at a time until it passed the HHT. I then started using the services of a group member here, Chris Ellison. He had far more experience than I did and did an even better job. I started letting him just hone my personal razors too. If I still sold razors they would still be going to him now. I would hone, or have them honed as soon as they arrived to me from the supplier. I could then sell from stock, already shave ready. Classic offered honing as an option upon purchase. Now days all the shops sell them already honed in advance as I did.

Lynn is another true honemeister. If the logistics had been different he may have been doing all of mine instead but Chris is nearby. Lynn hones for Classic, his own store SRD as well as for Vintage Blades. If I am not mistaken Lynn still shave tests every razor before releasing it and however much time it needs it gets. many of my personal razors had been done by him as well. John Crowley hones his razors as does Joe Chandler and Robert Williams. For all the major shops a true honemeister is doing the work.

The ones to be concerned with are the non-specialty shops...knife shops, barber supplies, etc... their idea of "shave ready" and "pre-sharpened" is what ever Dovo or TI says they did before boxing the razor. in most cases you get the factory edge, good or bad. From the specialists you get a razor that has had additional work done either in advance of, or at the time of sale.

in most cases the "dull" pre-sharpened razor is nothing more than bad shaving technique. I have had maybe 3 or 4 "not sharp enough" complaits ever and each one I had sent back shaved me well as returned but I would hone it again and send it off.

Many newbies expect the whiskers to simply be wiped off the face on their first shave. Many have told me "I've been saving up a beard by not shaving for a week" before their first shave then are surprised by less than stellar results <g>.

I'm sure the current honemeisters will chime in on this one.

Thanks,
Tony

netsurfr · 09-18-2008, 12:43 AM

I think that there is a point that has not been really addressed here. When a new person receives a shave-ready razor from a honemeister, there is an unknown factor: the recipient's ability to strop. I don't say this to slam newbies but more to reflect a problem I had when I started out. I was applying way too much pressure on the strop and was taking a perfectly good edge and rolling it. Consequently, I got really sucky shaves (that's a technical term).
So, another question here should be how skilled at stropping is the person receiving a razor honed by Lynn or any other honemeister.
I am not saying that when I order a razor prehoned that it necessarily meets my standards for sharpness all of the time. I usually have to work with it a bit to tune it up. However, I have progressed beyond the stage in my learning cycle where I trash the razor on the strop.

holli4pirating · 09-19-2008, 02:18 AM

When I first read this thread, I was pretty sure the problem laid in the shaving and not the honing, and Tony's post seems to confirm that. Wetshaving itself is not easy, even with a DE. Throw in a straight with users who might have no experience with stropping, beard prep, and lathering...

Every time a thread was posted by a newbie about subpar shaves, the questions were always the same. No one ever seemed to doubt the honing of the razors. Seems that was the right course of action.

Bruce · 09-19-2008, 03:32 AM

holli4,

>>"Every time a thread was posted by a newbie about subpar shaves, the questions were always the same. No one ever seemed to doubt the honing of the razors. Seems that was the right course of action"<<

From what I have seen on various threads, it apppears that the new-to-straights generally blame the honer and then the razor. All of which is fine as it keeps our own halos shiny. When I returned to straight shaving after a very long absence and upon what seemed sound advice, I got a couple razors which had been honed by a honemeister, Lynn, in this case. I was appalled at how poorly these razors initially shaved. I bought a bunch of hones and started trying to hone my own. In shave testing them, I was surprised at how much better the Lynn-honed razors shaved than the ones I tried to hone, but was still not really satisfied with his work either. The more I practiced with prep and shaving in general, the more amazed I became at how much better Lynn's honing got -- on the same razors!! With never sending it back to him for re-work!!!!

[this may be not unlike how smart your father got between your 15th and 21st birthdays]

I agree that what is shave ready for one may not be face perfect for another. Each of us is unique, similar certainly, but unless you are a twin, there is no one like you. This implies that idiocyncracies will make each face subtley different, perhaps enough to make the preparation of a razor's edge slightly off for one face from another. I have since my initial trials purchased vintage, shave ready razors from forum members - which needed a bit of tweaking to make them work smoothly on my face. When commenting about this to the seller, they were surprised, as their honing made the razor work perfectly for them. In making this comment about my newly purchased and prepared razor, I wasn't attacking the seller/honer only verifying my theory that a well honed razor will shave, but it may need to be tweaked a bit for it to work the best on a particular face.

Dunno if I'm right, but it sure sounds reasonable....

holli4pirating · 09-19-2008, 04:01 AM

I guess I should have been more clear. When I said "no one ever seemed to doubt the honing," I was referring to the more senior members who were answering the newbie's questions. And the threads that I am referring to typically describe terrible shaves (as opposed to slightly less than smooth), where the razor pulls a lot or does not cut hairs along the full lenght of the blade. Maybe that is not what all the threads have detailed, but that is what most of the ones I've read seemed to say.

radix7508 · 09-23-2008, 04:27 PM

I bought two TI's and two Dovo's brand new. One TI was honed pretty well but has camber to it and the other had gouges in the edge like the grand canyon when viewed under the microscope, I had to rework both of them. Of the two brand new Dovo's I bought both of them had edges that looked like they had honed them on 220 grit sandpaper and sent it out the door, the edges were nowhere close to the mirror finish of a .92 or .49 micron Shapton honed edge...I had to rework both of those as well...

I think a 'shave ready' blade is one that will pass the HHT...last night I got the .49 micron Shapton stone and i finally got the HHT to work with the blades i have...despite being very careful with the .92 micron stone, I could not get that to pass the HHT either...is this why Classicshaving sells the .92 AND the .49 micron Shapton stones? possibly...