Frameback - from start to finish

WireBeard · 09-21-2008, 04:45 PM

Hi All!

I have a Mappin and Webb Frameback that I won in the "Great Missouri Razor Auction of 2007" and I am ready to start honing it. I have watched Heavy's vids, ready many interesting posts here, and have had some nice results in honing some of my regular straights, both out of the box and touching up some that had moved beyond the paddle as far as being shave ready.

I know there is a different technique when dealing with framebacks or other blades with smiles, so I thought I would try and get some A-Z tips.

My stone stable is as follows:

1 Cotigura Rubbing Stone
1 Belgian Yellow Coticule Stone - 6" x 2" (150mm x 50mm) with a blue stone on the reverse
1 Belgian Blue Stone - 6" x 2" (150mm x 50mm)
1 DMT D8E Continuous (x-fine 1200 grit) diamond on 8" x 3" x 3/8" steel plate
1 Norton 4K/8K
1 Escher

I'll post some pics and a condition description later...I need coffee.

Thanks!

WireBeard · 09-21-2008, 07:15 PM

Correction! I need to re-read my own posts...(senility?)....:

I noticed the manufactuer's name and a hallmark on one of the razors:

"...n Brothers Queen's Cutlery Works Sheffield" The hallmark was a sun with a face and inscribed in script on the face of the spine was "Fine India Steel". Some Googling and I found that the only maker in England that fit the above partial stamping was Mappin Brothers. I know them and their successor firm Mappin and Webb from he world of silver, so I was impressed. Sadly, there were no laws in the UK requireing the hallmarking of steel goods, so there is no date stamp (a letter used to indicate each year, then restarted using a different font and stamp shape)........It is in excellent condition: solid pins, tight and centered in the scales, no cracks in the scales or blade, some minot pitting and discoloration, no rust!, scales are celluloid, but have a woodgrain to them."

So this razor pre-dates M&W. I have attached a picture. It looks like there were attempts to polish the blade, although it is odd, as the wear is over a part of the brand stamping.

The pins are tight and there is no rust. The scales look to e of wood as there is a grain and near the pivot there is some fading...but they could also be black celluloid (as noted above).

All guidance is appreciated!

Greg

Russel Baldridge · 09-23-2008, 05:49 AM

If that were my razor, and I had those stones (which I do, as luck would have it), I would start by taping the spine with at least one layer of tape (personal preference, you really don't have to), then start with a rolling x pattern on the DMT 1200 until the bevel is set. The DMT will make quick work of that task unless it's seriously dull. Then I'd move on to the Coticule and form a slurry with the rubbing stone, remove the tape at this point if you wish to do so, within fifty passes (could be much less depending on your stone) the scratches from the DMT 1200 should be gone. Wash off the slurry and rewet the surface of the Coticule, twenty or so passes ought to bring the edge up to a nice hair grabbing sharpness, but you really can't over hone the edge on a Coticule so you could just keep going until it no longer gets any sharper. Then I'd move on to the Escher for 20 or so passes with very very light pressure for the final touch.

Hit a plain leather strop for 100 or so passes to soften the edge a little and have a test shave.

If it's not quite as you'd like it, start back at the Coticule with water, and progress as necessary.

Very nice blade! I really have a soft spot for those old chunks of English steel, and that one seems to be of excellent pedigree

.

WireBeard · 09-23-2008, 06:56 AM

Excellent! Thanks for the tips! Heavyduty shows how to do the rolling X pattern in one of his videos in the FAQ. That is the pass where you are doing the normal X pattern, but instead of the heel-to-toe motion being in a straight lateral direction, the motion is a curve, yes?

I was quite pleased with the razor when i saw it in person...much better than any of the photos. The spine face is etched with "Fine India Steel"

What would you expect the scales to be? Celluloid or wood? Any ideas as to a non-invasive refurbishment for them?

Once I have it honed, I will polish it again with Maas and buff with a microfiber.

Thanks again!

Greg

JMS · 09-23-2008, 07:01 AM

Is that a detachable blade?

It looks like a modified lancetedge!

Russel Baldridge · 09-23-2008, 07:19 AM

Sometimes still shots help a little bit: The Rolling X

The only thing that matters is that the entire length of the edge touches the hone at some point during the pass, the motion that accomplishes that goal is usually the rolling X.

As for the scales, I don't know for sure and scales can be tricky to touch up so I'd hate to give much advice without more info or detail shots. But as long as the blade closes securely and doesn't hit the sides, I'd say leave them as is, they have an charm to them in their current state. Same for the blade, with the little bit of patina and signs of age, polish it if you want to but you don't have to.

JoshEarl · 09-23-2008, 02:44 PM

I largely agree with David's advice, although I'd suggest throwing another stone in between the DMT and the coticule. In theory, it should be pretty easy to go from the DMT to the coticule if you use a slurry, but I've never gotten it to work. Inserting 50 or so strokes on the Belgian blue, also using a heavy slurry, makes a big difference for me. Then you can finish with the coticule and plain water.

Framebacks don't seem to require much special care. They're easier to hone than most of the other big blades because there's less material in the cross-section. The thing David mentioned about making sure the entire edge touches the hone is crucial. If you don't establish the bevel correctly on the DMT, it's pretty easy to wind up with some spots where you're essentially honing one side of the edge while the other side never hits the hone. Do your work on the DMT properly and the rest will follow.

Keep us posted!

Josh

Russel Baldridge · 09-23-2008, 04:37 PM

DAVID!?!?!

WireBeard · 09-23-2008, 08:26 PM

David...that's you SRP cover name...we won't tell.

Excellent advice. I will work on this on the weekend. I like the idea of leaving the scales as is or just some cleaning...the blade was just tarnished a bit, no rust or pitting....very nice and shiny now, but it still has the patina of old metal.

The razor over all is in great condition...I looked at it again last night and there is a nice bevel all along the curve of the blade, so it hasn't been butchered.

I am having good luck (knock wood) with honing...all that experience with pocket knives, bayonets, and chef's knives is coming in handy (Boy Scout, Army, Chef)

I will post before and after pics.

WireBeard · 09-28-2008, 02:55 AM

I have some pics of before and after...the last three are the afer...a bit blurry (my camera gave up the ghost just after this) but you can see more shiny and the ligh bouncing off the edge.

The pattern wasn't that hard to get the hang of...the pics posted here and HeavyDuty's vid helped. I started with the DMT, then to the Norton 4K/8K, then Belgian with slurry, then Belgian without slurry, then Coticule, then Escher. I have a mirror finish that grabs nicely on the thumbnail. One "oops"...on the back edge of the blade I have less of a visible bevel than on the front. Definite room for technique improvement there...the passes going away from me felt a bit more difficult, as far as hand position.

Then 10 passes on the 1.0 pasted paddle, then 10 on the 0.5 CrO2 paddle, 20 on lether, 20 on Latigo, 10 on horsehide.

Shave: Great! Hot towel, MB's Rose Soap Lather, 2 minutes under the towel, more lather, 3 passes - WTG. XTG, and ATG (including the neck). I did not do the usual "scythe" sweep from the center of my neck under the chin horizontally along my jawline (that's where the "wire beard" is located), but the rest was great! A touch of redness - the blade is really heavy and you don't need much pressure. Near BBS - need to hit a few spots better. Tonic and then balm...feels great!

I think I will hit the Belgian and Coticule again tomorrow...as for the smaller bevel on he back...will it work to go back to the DMT and work my way back up, just on that side of the blade? If it is shaving well, is it needed?

Thanks for all the great advise for this type of blade! Once I get it tuned, I hink it may be added to the faves list!

A neat thing is hearing how the blade sounds as it cuts...and is gets quieter with each pass.

heavydutysg135 · 09-28-2008, 06:56 PM

I am glad that everything worked out for you with this one. For what it's worth, I would strongly recommend that you never use the thumbnail test after you get past the 4K level because your thumbnail will actually dull the edge somewhat. When the edge is getting close to shave ready in the 8K level and beyond it is much thinner than a piece of paper so you can imagine how being dragged across something as hard as a thumbnail can be counterproductive to attaining optimal sharpness. As far as the smaller bevel goes, the size is determined by the actual grind of the razor, not your honing or lack of it for the most part (Of course if you wear the razor down this is different. On the other hand, if the heal is not as sharp as the rest of the blade then that is on you and you will have to do more work in this area if you want the razor to be equally sharp from heal to toe (the heal is generally the most difficult because it normally spends the least amount of time on the hone). If your M&W shaves anthing like mine the you definately have a keeper there!

Russel Baldridge · 09-28-2008, 07:03 PM

The size of the bevel doesn't mean anything. As long as there is a bevel and the very edge contacts the hone, you should be good to go.

Sounds like you did a great job! I wouldn't mess with it unless you really want to.

Congrats!

WireBeard · 09-28-2008, 08:48 PM

Thanks! I will avoid the thumbnail test after the 4K. As for the bevel, I have a nice, even edge, heel to toe on both sides, it's just that one side seems to have a wider bevel than the other. Based on the shave, it doesn't seem to have any effect - both side of the face felt great. I may take it back to the coticule to fine tune it, but I think that is all I need to do.

My next step is taking the wedge I bought from heavyduty back to the stones (probably just needs some coticule action).

HeavyDuty, do you tape the spine on your wedges?

Thanks again! I have a boat-load of razors to work on (mine, not others)...so getting good feedback early on helps!

heavydutysg135 · 09-29-2008, 04:58 AM

Thanks! I will avoid the thumbnail test after the 4K. As for the bevel, I have a nice, even edge, heel to toe on both sides, it's just that one side seems to have a wider bevel than the other. Based on the shave, it doesn't seem to have any effect - both side of the face felt great. I may take it back to the coticule to fine tune it, but I think that is all I need to do.

If it is just the size of the bevel and not the level of sharpness that is an issue then you are in a fine position now, and more work on the stones is likely not going to change anything for the better.

My next step is taking the wedge I bought from heavyduty back to the stones (probably just needs some coticule action).

HeavyDuty, do you tape the spine on your wedges?

I have done it both ways, maybe if you send me a picture of the razor then I can remember. Adding one layer of tape for touch ups to a razor originally honed without tape will not cause any problems; but tring to touch up a razor without tape on a fine stone that was originally honed with tape will be a waste of time because you will have a reverse double bevel. This means that the hone will not contact the shaving edge until the edge is completely re-established (which could take a REALLY long time with a wedge and a fine stone). I also went over a method of using a permanent marker to see whether the razor was honed with or without tape on my videos if you want to check that out. You could just add 1 layer of tape and be fine either way (assuming I don't remember what I did and you don't want to figure it out).

Thanks again! I have a boat-load of razors to work on (mine, not others)...so getting good feedback early on helps!

The more you practice the better you will get (of course there will always be a few "problem" ones too). As Lynn says, Have Fun!

WireBeard · 09-29-2008, 07:19 AM

Thanks! Sharpness does not seem to be an issue...would going back to the coticule do anything for "smooth"?

Here is a pic of the wedge...it is a Wade and Butcher. Shaves like a dream...just needs touched up after much whisker-whacking. Pic attached.

I have found I enjoy the honing...very "zen"......

Russel Baldridge · 09-29-2008, 07:47 PM

The coticule will give a smoother edge than many stones of equal grit, and most times it's a personal preference type of situation, so if you feel like the edge isn't as good as it could be you can give it a shot.

If the edge turns out a little worse than it was, try a few laps on the Escher to see if it will return to it's initial condition (or better). If nothing improves, you are at the max. performance for those stones and that piece of steel. For better results you might have to go to pastes or other stones, but that shouldn't be necessary since those stones ought to be up there with the best of 'em.

I totally agree about honing, it's very relaxing...

...once you get passed the initial frustration.

heavydutysg135 · 09-30-2008, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WireBeard

Thanks! Sharpness does not seem to be an issue...would going back to the coticule do anything for "smooth"?

Here is a pic of the wedge...it is a Wade and Butcher. Shaves like a dream...just needs touched up after much whisker-whacking. Pic attached.

I have found I enjoy the honing...very "zen"......

I think that I honed the razor without tape (can you see a slightly worn but polished spine?). That is not actually a wedge, it is more like a 1/3-1/4 hollow so it should be a little easier than a wedge. A yellow coticule should be enough to maintain any razor in shave ready condition for life as long as you do not damage the edge. It should only take a few light passes and some stropping to touch it up.

David

WireBeard · 09-30-2008, 06:33 AM

Cool, thanks!

How goes the CPA tests?

heavydutysg135 · 09-30-2008, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WireBeard

Cool, thanks!

How goes the CPA tests?

I am taking the Financial section on Friday and then Auditing toward the middle of October. Once they are through then the last two sections should not be nearly as tough (shorter tests with less calculations and much less scope in material) and I expect to be done by the middle of January '09. After that, knowing myself I will probably get bored and go for a CFA, MBA, or Law Degree to go with it. I love a challenge and keeping busy, although my girlfriend does not always share the same view