[Philadelph]

So I have been checking out some hones and came across a lot of talk about this particular stone... The Naniwa Chocera 10k. Now I know it doesn't sound like much... 10k whatever, but seriously this stone is supposed to be IT. This is a different series than the Naniwa Superstones so make sure you look into the Chocera 10k. Anyway, supposedly it is the ultimate stone for finishing samurai swords. I started reading a lot of reviews and people say that it IMPROVES the edge after using alllll kinds of finishing hones including shapton gs 16k with ONE PASS. Now they aren't talking straight razors, but honestly people have said that ANY knife honed on this with one pass after being polished up to a good level will be significantly improved. Anyone look into it for Razors yet? I'm surprised I haven't heard much talk of it here. Then again, it is an expensive stone. Anyone use it??

[Chris L]

I think I remember someone at B&B waxing on about either wanting one or he bought one. That was last year some time. I thought they were between $300-$400?. That's all I recall. Maybe a search at B&B would yield more info.

Chris L

[xChris]

I did some limited research too on this hone. Apparenetly, the grit breaks down as the hone is used, so you start out with a 10K but it gets finer as you go. Certainly interesting, and maybe I'll look into it again when I completely use (yeah, not likely) or sell one of my other hones.

[jwoods]

where did you find it at

[Philadelph]

It's $269- remember not to confuse it with the Superstone, the Chosera (Chocera?) is different. Anyway, check out the fourth post down here:

Naniwa Chosera reviews - Knifeforums.com - Intelligent Discussion for the Knife Enthusiast - Powered by FusionBB

You can find it here:

Japanese Chosera Waterstones by Naniwa at Tools for Working Wood

[xChris]

Here's one vendor that I found when I was looking them over.

Tools for Working Wood

[OLD_SCHOOL]

I've only heard Naniwa thrown around this site from time to time. Can't say I have heard of it, but its properties sound similar to that of a natural hone, the more the slurry breaks down, the finer it gets. I know that there is a type of stone here that is 1/2 natural and 1/2 synthetic. Perhaps the Naniwa too is made up like this and thats how it gets finer as you use it.

[Russel Baldridge]

Chocera and Japanese Natural Stones .... - Foodie Forums

There's a guy in there that mentions having the Chocera hones, but not the 10k. Some of the other guys talk about other people's experiences and none seem to find it outstandingly better than the alternatives.

Then again, a 10k hone is really unlikely to be the holy grail.

Alex Gilmore's collection of natural finishing stones is extremely impressive and his experience is that the good Nakayama stones can be in the 40k to 45k range: Japanese stone grit levels: Suita, Narutaki, Nakayama

[Philadelph]

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

Chocera and Japanese Natural Stones .... - Foodie Forums

There's a guy in there that mentions having the Chocera hones, but not the 10k. Some of the other guys talk about other people's experiences and none seem to find it outstandingly better than the alternatives.

Then again, a 10k hone is really unlikely to be the holy grail.

Alex Gilmore's collection of natural finishing stones is extremely impressive and his experience is that the good Nakayama stones can be in the 40k to 45k range: Japanese stone grit levels: Suita, Narutaki, Nakayama

Well from what I have read the 10k Chosera is in another league from the lower grit ones. Also 40-45k range stones seem to be overkill when everyone complains that even the edge from a 30k Shapton is "too sharp". But here is another review from Foodie Forums:

"Ah, now the 10k Naniwa Chocera. I'll have to say at the outset that I was not expecting it to beat the 12k Superstone. In fact, I was almost hoping it wouldn't as this is an expensive stone. (Again, I'll leave the pricing issues to Sakeen7).

The stone has a 'presence'. As you unwrap it from it's golden colored cloth, ad special box, you feel like this shoud be somethinng special. So is this hype and all this air of sword polishing just a slick sales job for an expensive stone? It was time to find out.

It has a creamy feel to it more than the 10k or 12k superstones dry. It is not a particularly thirsty stone with minimum bubbling. After about 5 minutes, no bubbles. It took little effort to keep it wet. The knives we tried on it were the full mix, some with a previous 10k or 12k superstone edge and some with whatever edge it had. All were exceedingly sharp, most especially after the 12k Naniwa superstone edges. There were single and double beveled knives, traditional and Western, powdered steels, blue and white carbon steels - pretty much a mix of high end knives - Carter, Suisin. Blazen, Itou, etc etc as you can see in the pictures. Pettys, debas, gyutos, etc.

EVERY SINGLE one of the knives gave absolutely amazing edges with minimal effort.

The 10k Chocera has lots of abrasive and quickly puts an amazng edge on a knife - all kinds of knives. Very good edges became exquisitely good edges and exquisite edges became ... better. I'm running low on superlatives. After every knife was checked before and after sharpeninng by both of us, the conversation degenerated into successive exclamations of amazement.

I do have to make one off topic comment. No efforts were made during the entire evening at burr removal. We both would feel edges and barely detect burr or agree that we were just on the cusp of producing a burr. This was a treat to work with someone who appreciated the waste of effort to produce large burrs and then remove it.

Now I also looked at a couple of these edges with an inspection scope. These were excellent hand sharpened edges, but you could see convexing of the edges and incomplete scratch removal and less than precise bevels. Yet the edges were amazing. Now this 10k Chocera doesn't have a base so it is a perfect candidate to use as a stone in my Gizmo. I have a feeliing that there is even more capability to squeeze out of this stone.

The stone is almost eerily silent. You have good feedback, minimal mud buildup. It is further improved by lightly touching it up with the 8k DMT plate. I captured a minute amount of swarf to use on paper later.

The stone is very accomodating to hand sharpening on a wide vaiety of steels - in fact all of them. It seems to just have the amazing ability to make everything it touched MUCH sharper. QUICKLY. Just a few strokes and you touch the edge and ooooh! and a big smile. ALL of the edges it produced gave me pause and a double take as to just how sharp it is. It's the nicest stone I've ever used. Period. For a stone addict this is pure heroin.

Now how the edge is improved further with submicron pastes remains to be seen, but I can easily say that using a Chromium leather strop just seemed like it would be a step back. I really can't imagine why you would need a sharper edge than what we produced in a kitchen.

We tried doing some veggies - a yellow bell pepper and some baby carrots. One usuba on its own weight made see through carrot slices in a half inch long stroke. Even light weight knives like the carter nakiri went through carrots on a short push cut on its own weight. Supelative edges - all of them."

[Philadelph]

P.S. I forget where exactly I saw it and am still looking but one review said that he tried it alongside many other stones including naturals and a 16k Shapton and it IMPROVED the edge from the Shapton 16k and others. Now from what a lot of guys here think of the 16k Shapton, it seems to me that this stone should maybe get some more thought.

[Bruno]

I just wanted to add a minor point:
Traditional Japanese sword sharpening is done with the Nakayama as the final polishing stone.
And from what So told me, no stone is higher regarded.

[OLD_SCHOOL]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Traditional Japanese sword sharpening is done with the Nakayama as the final polishing stone. And from what So told me, no stone is higher regarded.

This is accurate. The Nakayama hones are the most highly sought after hones in the world. Narutaki, Suita and so on don't even compare.

Maybe the Naniwa is the holy grail of synthetic stones

[zenshaver]

Tools for working wood says they are synthetic.

[Russel Baldridge]

Originally Posted by Philadelph

Also 40-45k range stones seem to be overkill when everyone complains that even the edge from a 30k Shapton is "too sharp".

Apples and oranges, my friend. A synthetic stone puts a different edge on a blade than a natural stone, maybe 30k synthetic is unpleasant but 40k+ natural is wonderful.

Then again, I don't have shaptons to compare to, so I'll take your word that the 30k is superfluous.

I guess I just have a hard time believing that a 10k hone could ever achieve the smoothness that a finer natural stone could because there will always be 10k grit in the slurry, no matter how fine some of the particles become.

[Chris L]

With the reviews, it's VERY tempting to try that stone. However, I share Russel's skepticism. Chefs are slicing through carrots and other foods, none of which can say "ouch" or get razor burn.

The theoretical merit the reviews of that stone seem to tout which intrigues me is the idea that in theory, this stone could act as both a finisher and polisher in one stone. Leaving the 8,000 grit range and finishing completely on this stone. I find that interesting but I don't have the money to play product reviewer for it. If I DID have the money, I think I'd spring for it and give it a shot just for fun and experimentation. Heck, a guy could always sell this stone on Ebay as I'm sure it holds its value well and would be snatched up in a heartbeat by chefs or woodworkers. So....buy it, try it out and if it doesn't work sell it on Ebay for maybe $40 less than you paid for it? It might be worth the risk.

Chris L

[JimmyHAD]

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

Apples and oranges, my friend. A synthetic stone puts a different edge on a blade than a natural stone, maybe 30k synthetic is unpleasant but 40k+ natural is wonderful.

Then again, I don't have shaptons to compare to, so I'll take your word that the 30k is superfluous.

I guess I just have a hard time believing that a 10k hone could ever achieve the smoothness that a finer natural stone could because there will always be 10k grit in the slurry, no matter how fine some of the particles become.

I do have a 30K Shapton Pro and got it at a great price thanks to Telly. I do not find the edge polished on the 30K harsh or unpleasant. Another case of the results being determined by the Indian rather then the arrow? For me the REAL holy grail of hones was the Y/G Escher. Now that I have one I find that it is all that it was cracked up to be. I am interested in the Nakayama and other Japanese hones but feel pretty well set with what I now have so maybe the HAD is subsiding..... for now.

[Chris L]

Originally Posted by JimmyH-AD

so maybe the HAD is subsiding..... for now.

Jimmy, you know it will flare up again, don't you? It's incurable.

Chris L

[JimmyHAD]

Originally Posted by Chris L

Jimmy, you know it will flare up again, don't you? It's incurable.

Chris L

Yeah, you're probably right. I wouldn't bet against it. Great score you got on that Dark Blue.

[Philadelph]

Cool conversation going on here! Personally I just wanted to stir up some HAD talk. I don't really have HAD at all and don't plan on trying any stone this expensive unless it hones the razor for me. I also think the point about what people cut with kitchen knives vs. a razor is a valid one. Doesn't mean that it wouldn't work as well for razors... that is something that has yet to be seen lol.

[Chris L]

Originally Posted by Philadelph

Cool convers