HAD begins: DMT D8XX for Shapton 16k?

cassady · 10-04-2008, 07:46 PM

Okay folks, the RAD is in full effect, which led to quite a few out of condition razors purchased and being brought back to shavability. And I like to think I've been pretty successful, although I know it's a learning process, and I am only beginning.

Now comes the HAD.

My Shapton 16k is on its way, to join set (500, 1k, 4, 8k -- and a few arkansas stones for fun). I've been using the DMT D8XX for lapping, which works great (based on my limited experience with razors -- it's great for knives, and if it isn't, I don't know any better yet).

So my question is, given how rough the D8XX is, is it too coarse to lap the 16k? Do I need to move to the DMT D8C? I know, I know. Buy the dedicated Shapton lapping plate. I would, but $300 is out of my budget right now.

Will the D8XX work on the 16k?

Thanks all,

cass

riooso · 10-04-2008, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cassady

Okay folks, the RAD is in full effect, which led to quite a few out of condition razors purchased and being brought back to shavability. And I like to think I've been pretty successful, although I know it's a learning process, and I am only beginning.

Now comes the HAD.

My Shapton 16k is on its way, to join set (500, 1k, 4, 8k -- and a few arkansas stones for fun). I've been using the DMT D8XX for lapping, which works great (based on my limited experience with razors -- it's great for knives, and if it isn't, I don't know any better yet).

So my question is, given how rough the D8XX is, is it too coarse to lap the 16k? Do I need to move to the DMT D8C? I know, I know. Buy the dedicated Shapton lapping plate. I would, but $300 is out of my budget right now.

Will the D8XX work on the 16k?

Thanks all,

cass

I just got my 16K and in the material that I got they suggest lapping with Wet and Dry 320 on a glass surface. Which I did. If you do not do a hell of a lot of razors lapping should probably be a 1 time deal if I am not mistaken.You are going to love the 16K. I just used it and pasted the razor with 0.5 and 0.25. Incredible shave indeed!

Take Care,
Richard

gssixgun · 10-04-2008, 08:41 PM

Buried somewhere deep inside of SRP was a great thread about post lapping of stones.... Basically how to get a nice smooth surface on each stone after lapping....
I used this system up until I bought the Shapton GDLP now it is not neccessary...
Here is what you do... I will just use some for instance stone grits here....

You lap your 1k stone as usual then 4k then 8 k then 16k
Now comes the trick, you take the 1k and rub it under a steady stream of water against the 4k, rinse them both, then take the 4k and do the same with the 8k, and the same with the 8k and 16k... you will end up with 4 nice smooth lapped stones....
Remember to rinse the stones well as you do this, to keep the grits sperate...

IIRC.. I showed this system at the NC meetup when we lapped a Norton set there

kevint · 10-04-2008, 09:00 PM

Only problem with that might be their sticking together... permanently

i don't think you need a super slick surface, in fact it may be less desirable. I have used the extra coarse dmt quite a bit, so much that the new 400 atoma i recently bought out performs it speed wise, not to mention looking flatter under my straightedge.

The xtra coarse should not specifically lead to increased hone loss either. It's the amount of material needed to be removed, not the speed of removal that makes a hone flat. though in real life the xtra coarse probably does result in a litlle more loss compared to 325.

cassady · 10-05-2008, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevint

Only problem with that might be their sticking together... permanently

You just separate them like you're twisting off the top cookie to get at the filling in an Oreo!

cass

Lt.Arclight · 10-05-2008, 12:27 AM

I was under the assumption that since the Shapton 16K that I owned was FLAT when it was new,that it would STAY flat until I honed enough razors on it.

Well after less than 2 months of use-the hone is nowhere near as flat-infact, I am currently waiting for the DGLP. The polymer used in the stone does indeed change shape after it is wet, causing mine to have a distinct hollow down the center of the hone. Using a precision machinist straightedge there is a noticeable deformation. This is NORMAL.

Don't assume you won't need to lap the stones because you aren't planning on honing "x" number of razors. Granted, you CAN lap the hone using 320grit wet/dry sandpaper-believe me-its VERY SLOW going. Owning 4 different Shapton glass hones, I bought the DGLP,not cheap-but it IS part of the system,and can also be used on my natural stones. You might want to view this thread:

Shapton Owners HELP!

Chris L · 10-05-2008, 03:33 AM

I own the D8XX, the Shapton 16K and I've owned the GDLP so I feel qualified to answer this from actual experience. I would never lap my 16K with the D8XX. The D8XX is a plate for hogging material. As you know, that sucker leaves deep striations. Much more noticeable than the D8C. Yes, the Shapton ceramic stones are homogenous throughout and you're not going to wreck the stone (like lapping the surface glaze off of some barber hones only to reveal an altered coarser stone underneath), but I want the smoothest 16K surface I can get. The finer you lap stones the more stone you'll have contacting your razors. I have better results that way.

Chris L

riooso · 10-05-2008, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lt.Arclight

Granted, you CAN lap the hone using 320grit wet/dry sandpaper-believe me-its VERY SLOW going. Owning 4 different Shapton glass hones, I bought the DGLP,not cheap-but it IS part of the system,and can also be used on my natural stones. You might want to view this thread:

Shapton Owners HELP!

I was lucky enough to be able to lap my 16K in about 30 minutes using 320 grit wet sandpaper on a marble tile. I simply can not afford the $300 for a lapping plate. I took a chance and got it done and it works wonders on my razors. One can order from The Perfect Edge and get it lapped for $5.00 extra. I wish I would have known when I ordered mine and saved the hassle.

I do have a question though and that is once you have it lapped when will you have to lap it again?

Thanks guys,
Richard

Lt.Arclight · 10-05-2008, 04:30 AM

From what I have been told of the materials characteristics and the fact that I will have the DGLP-I'll more than likely lap them everytime I use them. I'm more concerned about getting the most out of the hone and I'm not really worried about wearing them out.

It really won't be a big deal to give each hone a few laps to guarantee a flat surface.Not to mention that I can use the plate on the vintage Escher blue/green as well as another vintage NOS Thuringian blue/ green (not Escher-brandname) rocks I just purchased.

Chris L · 10-05-2008, 06:13 AM

Contrary to what seems to be a burgeoning belief, you can lap Shapton ceramic on glass plates with a DMT D8C perfectly fine. Having owned and used both the D8C and the GDLP, I can say the D8C is more than up to the task. I'd hate to see guys hesitate on buying Shapton stones because they think they have to buy the GDLP to make them work.

Chris L

Lt.Arclight · 10-05-2008, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris L

Contrary to what seems to be a burgeoning belief, you can lap Shapton ceramic on glass plates with a DMT D8C perfectly fine. Having owned and used both the D8C and the GDLP, I can say the D8C is more than up to the task. I'd hate to see guys hesitate on buying Shapton stones because they think they have to buy the GDLP to make them work.

Chris L

You bring up a very valid point. But honestly, if you are going to own SEVERAL Shapton Glass Hones-in some cases ALMOST ALL of the system-including the 30K- Why not buy the plate DESIGNED for them?

None of us,IIRC, have not owned the Shapton's long enough to really know if the DGLP makes a difference,especially when the abrasive material gets very thin. I've already experienced enough distortion in my 16K plate to make it unusable without lapping and its only 2 months old. I'm not trying to justify the price,it is what it is

But, don't we literally spend hours discussing honing and part of that discussion is the ability to get the most performance out of the hones we are using? But, if the Shapton's need to be lapped prior to EACH use-AND you can't afford the DGLP, the DMT D8C is the answer-

, its gotta be better than using 320 Wet/dry

When HAD rears its ugly head-Why do,when you overdo

gssixgun · 10-05-2008, 03:14 PM

Some real info is available over at that Shapton website however you actually have to look for it in the forum page link...
I know that some of the people that have responded to this thread have done extensive research on the Shaptons....
If you actually start digging you will find that many of the Shapton users do recommend a very smooth almost slick surface on the 4k and above stones..
This seems to coincide with my experiences on the stones too, I have been using the 16k for quite awhile now, that was the first one I added to my honing stable..
When I first got it, I was lapping it on the Norton lapping stone,

guess what it works just fine, but you had to smooth it out after that, and the best way I found was rubbing it against a Norton 8k....

So to be a true politician here

and cover both sides of the debate

You can lap the Shapton with just about anything, but I would suggest you figure some way to get the 4k grit stones and above really smooth to get the most out of them....
However, I would also say now that I have the complete set, with the GDLP/DGLP (both ways seems right) that yes, it is a system, and it does work best that way.....

I would also point out that most of what I read is loaded with warnings about lapping natural stones on the GDLP...
Maybe ChrisL could elaborate more on that since he has probably done more research than most of us on that plate...

kevint · 10-05-2008, 04:00 PM

it sure could save a heap of digging with a not to good search engine if you had some links to relative posts

gssixgun · 10-05-2008, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevint

it sure could save a heap of digging with a not to good search engine if you had some links to relative posts

Ummmmm Kevin isn't that you that is a member over there too????
and honestly I am really not all that good on computers but I will try

OK here is the main one Shapton® Stones

The forum that is loaded with info http://www.japanesetools.com/phpBB2/

riooso · 10-05-2008, 04:06 PM

Thanks for the information guys. My previous setup was a DMT8EE and a four sided strop with diamond pastes down to 0.25. I used the the DMT8EE then the 16K yesterday and pasted from 0.5 to 0.25 stropped about a 100 times and the shave was incredible, HUGE difference.

Right now I can not justify the DGLP, but for all you pros I understand going that route. This 16K plate will be probably used about dozen times a year. It is an incredible engineering achievement, polishes quickly, and gives an incredibly edge. For all you guys wanting to make a jump from a starting setup like I have it is a very good choice and a very reasonable investment. The fairly large investement in razors that I seem to be acquiring kinda justifies the $107 that I paid for this plate.

Once again,thanks guys,
Richard

Russel Baldridge · 10-05-2008, 05:24 PM

But what does the GDLP do that the D8C does not? As far as I can tell, it just has decreased stiction but isn't necessarily any flatter.

And then there are DMTs that have recessed holes as well for about the same price as the diasharp series, I haven't tried them but the principle is the same.

The fact that it's part of the system means very little, flat is flat and if other methods will get you to the same end result, what's the difference?

And what's all this about the glass stones warping? I think I would consider that unacceptable if I were the manufacturer and was charging as much as they do for them, being as no other hone/stone out there warps.

End of mini-rant.

kevint · 10-05-2008, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Ummmmm Kevin isn't that you that is a member over there too????
and honestly I am really not all that good on computers but I will try

OK here is the main one Shapton® Stones

The forum that is loaded with info Japanese Woodworking Forums :: Index

I was asking for specific threads that dealt with extra smooth surfaces
even an op or some terms to narrow the search

as I dont recall reading anything like that

Lt.Arclight · 10-05-2008, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

But what does the GDLP do that the D8C does not? As far as I can tell, it just has decreased stiction but isn't necessarily any flatter.

And then there are DMTs that have recessed holes as well for about the same price as the diasharp series, I haven't tried them but the principle is the same.

The fact that it's part of the system means very little, flat is flat and if other methods will get you to the same end result, what's the difference?

And what's all this about the glass stones warping? I think I would consider that unacceptable if I were the manufacturer and was charging as much as they do for them, being as no other hone/stone out there warps.

End of mini-rant.

Its not a case of warping per se. The fact is that the polymer used in suspending the abrasive material does indeed change shape. This is not speculation, but indeed fact. The system is designed to be used with the DGLP, which will resolve any issue of flatness as well as prepare the stone by removing all remaining metal particles. It has nothing to do with quality control. I am only repeating information I received from a very qualified knowledgeable source. The lapping plate is to be used EACH and EVERY time the stone is used....

kaptain_zero · 10-06-2008, 02:29 AM

Jeez, this sounds just like all the major ink jet printer manufacturers who claim that only THEIR ink is suitable for their printers... It took legislation to get them to smarten up and you can now use non oem inks without voiding your warranty. Ditto for having your oil changed on your car at a local service station rather than at the original dealer where you bought the car from... and heavens to megatroid... can you imagine... using a different brand of motor oil?!?!?! And should I mention the various replacement blade/cartridge razors and what their makers say about "their systems"? Only Gillette knows how to make a 3 bladed cartridge to fit properly on their handle and give you a proper shave... heck, they eluded to that back in the DE days.....

Come to think of it, what about those straight razor manufacturers who also sold touch up hones, remember... they said it was surest way to insure your razor would give you many years of service.

Now, I don't have the facts at my finger tips but I seem to recall that the GDLP arrived *after* they began selling the glass hones and I'm pretty sure that at the time when the Pro stones were the most common, the standard was the compact lapping plate w/loose powders. It is still just as suitable today as it was back then..... The only real difference is that the loose powder makes a mess and it's less convenient.

As for the shape shifting hone.... it was a much larger problem with the Pro stones as they had no backing to support them. Even then it wasn't a huge problem but you really didn't want to soak your hones overnight.

When it comes to the use of a diamond lapping plate each and every time I go to hone a razor.... no thanks, I prefer to get full use out of my abrasives before grinding them off in a fruitless attempt at improving their honing ability. The hones need to be reasonably flat and reasonably clean..... you *can* obsess over this and take it to the ultimate *clean room* level... I suppose you could flatten the hone between each stroke