[PonderingTurtle]

Originally Posted by Lt.Arclight

Respectfully, I totally disagree. When you place a razor against your face and during the shave it cuts the whiskers, yet turns skin into hamburger because of its lack of smoothness-its NOT psychological.

But that is not what you are talking about here. You are talking confort.

Take a strop pasted with .25 diamond paste and go to town-chances are a sharp,yet harsh edge will result.Can you shave with a edge directly off an 8K Norton-absolutely, some may even find it comfortable. This is were advanced honing really counts-there are many roads to acheiving a keen comfortable edge. Does it take a mega buck Japanese hone? How can you judge it , if you haven't shaved with THAT razor?

Your face is full of nerve endings that WILL TELL YOU if you did a good job. Its not in your "mind"

Confort, disconfort, and pain. These things are subjective, and highly effected by psychological effects. That is the nature of the placebo effect. If you spend money, any money and do something that you are told will make you feel better, you will likely experiance that it does feel better.

Not this is certainly not a paranormal claim, I would be interested in seeing double blind testing with razors honed in different fashions, but all highly sharp.

[OLD_SCHOOL]

Originally Posted by blaireau

If European Natural Water Hones are a complicated, dark labarynth Japanese Natural Hones are impossible to understand without being guided by a Master Japanese Honemeister. Our own revered O_S is the person that I believe has the trust of the SRP brotherhood although perhaps other members can lenghten the list.

I wouldn't call myself a master. I have some knowledge, mostly of which is about the Nakayama hones, more specifically, the ones more suited for razors. If I don't have the knowledge, I can gain it, though it may take a little time.

[blaireau]

O_S, in your inemical, inscrutable oriental way, you don't assume your well known and appreciated expertise. Let me just say that my knowledge of these superb Japanese stones fits in a thimble while yours stretch an ocean to the bursting point! I thank my lucky stars that you are in our brotherhood. Please continue to enlighten us, Shihan-san.

[OLD_SCHOOL]

Originally Posted by Chady

As, in my eyes, it is somewhat relevant to the subject at hand >here< are some pictures of bevels with different stones Zowda took during a test. Reposting just in case some people have yet to see them.

You can scroll down and click on a link that leads to pictures of the different >edges< as well.
Wish someone with the time, passion and hardware could do it with some more stones, if for no other reason that it wiggles my jibbles to watch the pictures. Personally I'm very partial towards the 16k Shap

Edit: ahh, looking at that no slurry 12k Chinese bevel picture makes me feel all warm and fuzzy

I know Tim went to a lot of effort to do this tests, but one important key factor is, natural stones all vary and no two are ever the same. You may have one that is equivalent of being 50k in grit, give you the perfect edge, but a sister stone, taken right from beside your magic 50k grit hone, could quite very well be only 9k in grit and well, that won't quite give you the same finish.

Synthetics on the other hand, should never change, or not noticeably anyway.

[Russel Baldridge]

Wow, we're a passionate bunch!

But seriously, many individuals across a whole range of "sharpened steel" based hobbies (woodworking, cooking, knife collecting, etc.) all agree that certain steel properties require certain stone properties to get the best edge possible. Microchipping is the biggest reason given as proof; extremely hard, and thus brittle, steel will form microchips along the edge if it is honed on a stone that is itself too hard or too aggressive. But that same stone would be perfectly fine for steel that's a little softer, there's no illusion there.

Shapton GassStones were designed with A2 tool steel in mind because it's a really tough, abrasion resistant, tool steel that is used by Lie Nielsen among other woodworking tool makers. The properties of that steel were not being fully utilized by any other artificial hone on the market, so Shapton made some to suit it. (as an example of certain hones favoring certain steels and vice versa)

And yeah, many times enthusiasm can cause a guy with a brand new hone to rave about it like it's the best in the world when there's no way to know whether that's even remotely true, but outside of the Nakayama that I bought from O_S, nearly all of my stones have been picked up dirt cheap on ebay, at flea markets, or antique stores (more than one Escher for less than $10, not to mention the Coticules, those things are everywhere). I have no reason to favor any one of them over the others, save for their actual performance.

As for the steels properties changing as per the hone used, there's just no proof of that happening, the conditions that cause the steel matrix to change are far outside of proper honing practices.

[Lt.Arclight]

So true, we are passionate about honing because we are passionate about SHAVING. I don't think there is an equation applicable to $ spent on hones in relation to the amount of comfort/or satisfaction we are getting out of our razors.

Some have spent little-have learned to use what they have and are happy. There are those that have an insatiable hunger for new aquisitions of the hone variety and aren't happy-Human nature at work-I guess.

I think the true purpose of this discussion and sub forum for that matter is LEARNING other methods to achieve the "perfect edge"-either utilizing the hones we have or possibly gaining information to determine if the money we are thinking about spending is/or isn't going to improve our shaving experience.

The fact is we have many choices, some can afford more-some less.Natural hones, synthetic hones or having someone else sharpen your razors. There are some that are easily satisfied and others that are NEVER satisfied. Its more art than science and that's why its worth discussing.

[blaireau]

It's very true, all of us are passionate. Russel, you have saved me a lot of money for which I thank you. I have now decided not to buy the NOS Y/G Escher with original stamps. I will instead save this money and add to it if necessary to buy the Nakayama Karasu that O_S is seeking for me. Shihan-san, please take however much time as you need but find me the Stone of the Samurai. My son was trained in ****o-Ryu traditional Japanese Karate, After ten years of hard work he achieved the rank of Sho-Dan. He is dead now, was born 28 years ago a week from today. Please forgive his father mourning him today. I just watched "The Last Samurai" and it brought back memories. I still have his Ei, Bo, Boken and Shinai. Life is so mysterious, perhaps the stone will bring me enlightment, God knows not much else has...

[OLD_SCHOOL]

Originally Posted by blaireau

My son was trained in ****o-Ryu traditional Japanese Karate, After ten years of hard work he achieved the rank of Sho-Dan. He is dead now, was born 28 years ago a week from today. Please forgive his father mourning him today. Life is so mysterious, perhaps the stone will bring me enlightment, God knows not much else has...

Sorry to hear about your son. When did he pass away? There really is no worse pain a person can suffer, than the pain of losing a child.

I'm sorry to disappoint you but, I don't think a hone is going to bring you any enlightenment.

[blaireau]

O_S, he died on April 26, 2000, he was 19 years 6 months and 12 days old. Perhaps the stone per se will not bring me any enlightenment but the peace and pleasure that I derive from honing and lapping soothes my soul. Thank you for your thoughts, I guess that last night I had one too many Rum & Cokes. Well, I just feel at home here at the SRP, I feel that I am accompanied by friends here and those feelings plus a good dose of alcohol is very healing and sometimes leads to an outpouring of the heart. IN VINO VERITAS as my ancestors would say, IN WINE TRUTH.

[OLD_SCHOOL]

Yea alcohol and reminiscing aren't a good combination. But your right this place makes you feel at home, and I guess to some degree, the SRP community is kinda like an extended family.

[blaireau]

Thank you Shihan-san. Persco, please pardon my tangental comment to your post. I meant no harm.

[Bruce]

I stopped reading this about half way through and must return, but all the in and out and round-n-round discussion made me think of the long ago proposed test to determine how long it would take to provide enough energy to get a pot of water to boil by just shouting "boil" into the vessel.

Can we convince enough molecules at the edge of the blade to organize them themselves into nice orderly lines which create that crisp, sharp, dress right edge by just repeating in our best command voice, "razor, sharp!" I'd even allow the use of some single malt chemicals to help the experiment.

[blaireau]

OMG, not single malt chemicals! Honing with those in the blood stream might result in finger loss or worse!

[PonderingTurtle]

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

And yeah, many times enthusiasm can cause a guy with a brand new hone to rave about it like it's the best in the world when there's no way to know whether that's even remotely true, but outside of the Nakayama that I bought from O_S, nearly all of my stones have been picked up dirt cheap on ebay, at flea markets, or antique stores (more than one Escher for less than $10, not to mention the Coticules, those things are everywhere). I have no reason to favor any one of them over the others, save for their actual performance.

Percieved performance.

The problem is that while I am sure some of the things people do make a real difference, I am also sure some of them do not, but create a percieved difference. Butall human perception is faulty, and heavily influenced by what we want to believe.

So the only way to test it is with proper double blinded experiments, as it is not a question of what is the sharpest edge, but the most shaveable.

As shown in my reference of the tests using wine but telling people it cost different ammounts, they used MRI's to show that their experiances with the same wine where different depending on what they believed it cost.

The same thing happens to everyone all the time.

And money is not the only thing that matters. The hone you found in a fleamarket that is old and is no longer made or mined is also exclusive, and as such makes a strong narative.

The point about the cost is not that what someone paid for it effects their experiance, it is what someone believes about the quality of something will effect their experiance of that quality.

[Russel Baldridge]

Originally Posted by PonderingTurtle

Percieved performance.

The point about the cost is not that what someone paid for it effects their experiance, it is what someone believes about the quality of something will effect their experiance of that quality.

Yes, that is a phenomenon that occurs, but you are claiming it occurs all the time, which is false.

If you're point were true, I would be incapable of saying that some unidentifiable stone (probably Japanese but no guarantees) that I got from an junk dealer in Hawaii out performs all of the the Eschers that I own because there is no way to know it's properties before using it. I didn't pay enough for it to warrant being boasted about, it is almost unusably small, shows no indication of being anything special or rare, and is, in general, a mystery stone (of which I have many, this one is not unique or special on that regard, either). But you know what, it does outperform the Eschers, plain and simple (and I'll still make that claim even though it's unfeasable to be used with any regularity, in fact I'm disappointed that it's such a nice stone).

Your analogy to wine prices/satisfaction does not specify whether the people in the tests were seasoned wine tasters, my guess is that they are not (most tests like that seek out "average individuals" explicitly). So to say that a seasoned wine taster will show the same results as an average individual is the fallacy of weak analogy in that the wine taster is more likely to base his judgement on the actual properties of the wine, in comparison to his (extensive) past experiences than any random person would be.

Just because the average person can't do it, doesn't mean that nobody else can.

[blaireau]

Gentlemen, there is an adage that says that perception is reality. Of course it is. We accept that something is real when many people perceive it the same way. Russel, I agree that the perception of a group with poor to modest experience in an area is one thing whereas the perception of a group of "experts" is quite another thing, and has a higher value. But what are the qualifications of an "expert" when it comes to honing. I think that since this isn't a science taught in a university we have to drop back to experience. And that's not a bad thing, experience is a great teacher. So if a group of experienced honers say that this stone works like this and that one like that then one should listen. So when it comes to Japanese hones, blaireau listens to O_S since I know that he has a great deal of experience. German Water Hones are a different story. Many members of this forum have these and understand them quite well. The same goes for Belgian hones. Lynn Abrams once told me that he almost always finishes a razor off an Escher stone and so does Tim Zowada. Now these gentlemen know what they're talking about, and my experience is that the Escher stoned are the high end European finishing/polishing stone. They are slow and the grit is very fine, probably upwards of 12,000, and the abrasive gets finer and finer while honing. I'm looking forward to the Japanese hone that O_S will ultimately find for me and see how it compares to the Kosher grade Coticule, a B/G Escher and a Y/G Escher. That should keep me entertained for a few months!

[Bart]

Originally Posted by PonderingTurtle

Not this is certainly not a paranormal claim, I would be interested in seeing double blind testing with razors honed in different fashions, but all highly sharp.

That is exactly what my comrade and I have been doing for the past 3 months.
Here's the thread: Scratch pattern pictures
It gains very little interest. I stopped caring about that some month ago, since we're having much fun doing the tests and we're learning a few things anyway. But perhaps the lack of interest in a thread that at least tries to make a few objective observations, illustrates the audiophiles analogy. Maybe not.

I don't think honing needs a large progression through many hones.
I also don't think the placebo-effect of sharpness, caused by a high$ hone, lasts longer than one shave.
I like to think that a good hone shouldn't be all that critical about the steel it is honing.

Bart.

[PonderingTurtle]

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

Yes, that is a phenomenon that occurs, but you are claiming it occurs all the time, which is false.

It is something that happends all the time and will skew all results, and needs to be factored into all claims. It does not mean that the claims might not be correct, just that annecdotal evidence is meaningless for determining truth.

Your analogy to wine prices/satisfaction does not specify whether the people in the tests were seasoned wine tasters, my guess is that they are not (most tests like that seek out "average individuals" explicitly). So to say that a seasoned wine taster will show the same results as an average individual is the fallacy of weak analogy in that the wine taster is more likely to base his judgement on the actual properties of the wine, in comparison to his (extensive) past experiences than any random person would be.

Just because the average person can't do it, doesn't mean that nobody else can.

And this is exactly the falacy that gets the audiophiles all the time. It is "you might not be able to tell the difference, but my highly trained ears can". If you want to be able to show your ability to differentiate then you need to use tests that are properly blinded.

[PonderingTurtle]

Originally Posted by Bart

That is exactly what my comrade and I have been doing for the past 3 months.
Here's the thread: Scratch pattern pictures
It gains very little interest. I stopped caring about that some month ago, since we're having much fun doing the tests and we're learning a few things anyway. But perhaps the lack of interest in a thread that at least tries to make a few objective observations, illustrates the audiophiles analogy. Maybe not.

I don't think honing needs a large progression through many hones.
I also don't think the placebo-effect of sharpness, caused by a high$ hone, lasts longer than one shave.
I like to think that a good hone shouldn't be all that critical about the steel it is honing.

Bart.

Well a razor certainly needs to be sufficiently sharp to work, regardless of any placebo effect.

As for proper double blind experiment it would be pretty hard to do. You would need identical razors, and randomly assign each razor to any given shave, and make sure no one involved with gathering the data knew which one was which.

The other factor is that there might well be things that matter.

[Russel Baldridge]

Audiophiles are an entirely different subject.

We're talking about stones that are used by people in varying fields of interest with entirely different goals in mind, but still come to the same conclusions about how those stones interact with various types of steel.

If the top woodworkers in the world, the most renouned knife sharpeners, professional chefs, and "experienced" straight razor honers all agree that stones from a given geographic area and geological layer have X or Y abrasive qualities, it's pretty safe to assume that they are not making it up, or being decieved by fanciful whims and wishful thinking.

Besides that, you can't make these kinds of claims without having tried the items in question for yourself. Not to be elitist or anything, but it's common sense that I could never judge whether an experienced coffee taster can trully discern the specific plantation in the specific country and region of growth of the coffee he is tasting, not to mention the factors of amount of roast that the beans had and how long they ago they may have been roasted in combination with how fine the grind was and the time that the coffee took to brew (if we're talking espre