[bassguy]

I can dig the idea behind micro bevels, especially from learning to sharpen chef knives and such. Makes me want to go digging through the archives to see what others experience with this is. I don't have a 30000 stone, just the naniwa 12k and a bunch of powders. Idea should be the same though, right?

[Kingfish]

Originally Posted by bassguy

I can dig the idea behind micro bevels, especially from learning to sharpen chef knives and such. Makes me want to go digging through the archives to see what others experience with this is. I don't have a 30000 stone, just the naniwa 12k and a bunch of powders. Idea should be the same though, right?

Hey Justin,
I think it would be similar for sure and might be very useful in it's own right. On some harder steels, I started micros on the 16K and they came out fine.
It comes up in archieves but never tested formaly by SRP from what I can find.
M

[northpaw]

Gave this a shot and just finished the test shave.

I'm still not convinced I could ever call a 30k edge particularly "smooth", but it was definitely sharp as heck. What's smooth is my face.

Thanks for the tip - I'll definitely be experimenting some more with this. If nothing else, it should put off the eventuality of buying a DMT to lap the thing.

[StraightRazorDave]

I will definitely be trying the microbevel with the Shapton 30000, hopefully tonight! I'm going to try it with a razor that I already used a piece of tape to hone it, so I will just add 2 layers of tape and do 10 strokes on the 30000 to create the microbevel. Just to be consistent with the experiment, I'll try shaving with it without stropping the first time I shave.

Will report back with the progress!

[Kingfish]

Thanks Northpaw and Dave.
It is wonderful that Shapton 30Ks are weighing in too but equally happy for other polishing stones in the experiment.
Maybe we can do variations of this later, but this will be a fun starting point. Thanks again Dave and Northpaw, you are good sports.

Mike

[StraightRazorDave]

Originally Posted by Kingfish

Thanks Northpaw and Dave.
It is wonderful that Shapton 30Ks are weighing in too but equally happy for other polishing stones in the experiment.
Maybe we can do variations of this later, but this will be a fun starting point. Thanks again Dave and Northpaw, you are good sports.

Mike

No worries, Mike. So I tried in tonight. It wasn't EXACTLY the same as your initial experiment, only because the razor was originally finished on the 30k (not just the 16k), but I doubt that matters. It was honed with one layer of tape, so I just added 2 layers (so 1 extra) and did 10 slow and relaxed laps on the 30k. I'm surprised by how quickly the 30k cuts, as there was metal residue on the 30k even after just 10 laps. I dried the razor off and looked at it under 30x magnification. I could see a definite double/micro bevel along the entire length of the edge on both side (which is good!). I didn't strop it as you said, just put a bit of camellia oil on it and put it away until I would shave a few hours later.

So I just shower and shaved, and I must say the 30k double bevel leaves the razor SUPER sharp! I was surprised that I got a good shave even though I didn't strop it before-hand at all. It cut through hair effortlessly, and I got a very close WTG pass using no pressure at all (or else it would shred my face ), which I think is a good indication I will strop it before next time (I already did about 10 laps on the strop after I shaved to dry it off) and see how the shave compares. I'll try to shave with just this razor for a while to see how the edge holds up.

The only issue I could see with this micro-bevel method is touching up. I wonder how easy it would be to remove the 30k double bevel by just touching up the original bevel using the 16k. For example, if you created the bevel with no tape and created the 30k bevel with 1 layer, how many laps would it take on a 16k with NO tape for the bevel to reach the actual edge? Or would that even matter, and you could simply just use the 30k and touch up the double-bevel? I don't have experience creating multiple bevels, so I'm just hypothesizing.

[Kingfish]

Originally Posted by StraightRazorDave

No worries, Mike. So I tried in tonight. It wasn't EXACTLY the same as your initial experiment, only because the razor was originally finished on the 30k (not just the 16k), but I doubt that matters. It was honed with one layer of tape, so I just added 2 layers (so 1 extra) and did 10 slow and relaxed laps on the 30k. I'm surprised by how quickly the 30k cuts, as there was metal residue on the 30k even after just 10 laps. I dried the razor off and looked at it under 30x magnification. I could see a definite double/micro bevel along the entire length of the edge on both side (which is good!). I didn't strop it as you said, just put a bit of camellia oil on it and put it away until I would shave a few hours later.

So I just shower and shaved, and I must say the 30k double bevel leaves the razor SUPER sharp! I was surprised that I got a good shave even though I didn't strop it before-hand at all. It cut through hair effortlessly, and I got a very close WTG pass using no pressure at all (or else it would shred my face ), which I think is a good indication I will strop it before next time (I already did about 10 laps on the strop after I shaved to dry it off) and see how the shave compares. I'll try to shave with just this razor for a while to see how the edge holds up.

The only issue I could see with this micro-bevel method is touching up. I wonder how easy it would be to remove the 30k double bevel by just touching up the original bevel using the 16k. For example, if you created the bevel with no tape and created the 30k bevel with 1 layer, how many laps would it take on a 16k with NO tape for the bevel to reach the actual edge? Or would that even matter, and you could simply just use the 30k and touch up the double-bevel? I don't have experience creating multiple bevels, so I'm just hypothesizing.

Touch up is simply to continue to develop microbevel the same way. Over time it will grow into a regular bevel but that will be some time later. When it gets to that point you start over, make a primary bevel as you would normally then move to the 30K for a micro. I have a feeling that would take a long time to happen as the micro should be stronger by some factor. On the other hand if these microbevels turn out to be weak and are prone to rapid deterioration than it should be considered a bad practice as it defeats the purpose and any advantages it may offer. Now that is all theory as it pertains to razors as we can agree they are a unique animal.
Thanks for your insight and suggestions Dave. Many heads are better than one when they work together. I have been using a Challenge razor for one week with no sign of deterioration. The bevel pretty much looks like the day I did it. I too strop lightly to dry off edge only. I can't put my razor up without it's ritual of drying, light strop then camellia oil. I don't think that is unique behavior on this end of town.
Oh as far as recreating a single bevel, you will have to take it down to lower grits. The 16000 won't do it.

[StraightRazorDave]

Originally Posted by Kingfish

Touch up is simply to continue to develop microbevel the same way. Over time it will grow into a regular bevel but that will be some time later. When it gets to that point you start over, make a primary bevel as you would normally then move to the 30K for a micro. I have a feeling that would take a long time to happen as the micro should be stronger by some factor. On the other hand if these microbevels turn out to be weak and are prone to rapid deterioration than it should be considered a bad practice as it defeats the purpose and any advantages it may offer. Now that is all theory as it pertains to razors as we can agree they are a unique animal.
Thanks for your insight and suggestions Dave. Many heads are better than one when they work together. I have been using a Challenge razor for one week with no sign of deterioration. The bevel pretty much looks like the day I did it. I too strop lightly to dry off edge only. I can't put my razor up without it's ritual of drying, light strop then camellia oil. I don't think that is unique behavior on this end of town.
Oh as far as recreating a single bevel, you will have to take it down to lower grits. The 16000 won't do it.

Thanks!

Although I do like to finish with natural stones, finishing with a 30k microbevel seems very straightforward. Just a few laps with an extra piece of tape and BINGO, you're done. I could see myself taking a razor from very dull, going from 1k to 16k, then putting on a microbevel on at 30k. The whole process wouldn't take very long with the Shaptons and it's very no-nonsense.

Still, there's no way I'm going to abandon my naturals.

EDIT: I was just thinking.....if I really do want to finish on a natural, couldn't I establish the micro-bevel with a few laps on the 30k then finish on a slower high grit natural like a Nakayama?

[Pete_S]

I've heard some professionals use them, Zowanda in particular, as Jimmy said-- theres been some talk about them on SMF. I might try one out, as Bassguy said above, a double bevel is supposed to give the most durable edge on a Chef's knife.

Maybe a hanging pasted strop would be good for touch up on a razor honed like this, they're supposed to round the edge, so they might keep a microbeveled edge in good shape. I'm sure it would round the corners of the bevel a bit, bit I don't think that would matter a whole lot.

[JimR]

Originally Posted by StraightRazorDave

Thanks!

Although I do like to finish with natural stones, finishing with a 30k microbevel seems very straightforward. Just a few laps with an extra piece of tape and BINGO, you're done. I could see myself taking a razor from very dull, going from 1k to 16k, then putting on a microbevel on at 30k. The whole process wouldn't take very long with the Shaptons and it's very no-nonsense.

Still, there's no way I'm going to abandon my naturals.

EDIT: I was just thinking.....if I really do want to finish on a natural, couldn't I establish the micro-bevel with a few laps on the 30k then finish on a slower high grit natural like a Nakayama?

After reading this thread, I tried almost exactly that last night. I had a Case Red Imp Wedge that I was having trouble getting right where I wanted it. Figured I would have to rehone it anyway, so why not try?

I put on a single layer of tape, I took it to my nakayama using a fairly heavy slurry, did 20 laps than diluted, 10 laps and diluted, 10 more and finished on just water (kind of like a coti progression). I shaved without stropping. The shave was very interesting--sharp as all get out, but I don't know how smooth it was; I was extremely irritated afterward, but my face has been very strange these past few days, flaring up at everything I put on it. Might be a good idea to put the test shaves aside for the time being.