[azjoe]

I'm opening this discussion thread so members can discuss the Off-Topic forum closure, how it affects you, the pros/cons of having an OT forum, etc. It is not a place to discuss who said what to whom or a platform for anyone to continue to seek vindication for accusations or comments made by others that may have precipitated the closure.

<takes off admin hat>


For me personally, I'll miss the Off-Topic forum while it's on hiatus... there are many helpful and interesting threads there. I'll miss the discussions on motorcycles, computers, cameras, etc., as well as a few of the freedom and religion ones... although I didn't follow them in great detail myself.

On the other hand, I won't miss the dissension, name calling, and argumentative nature presented by a few individuals in some of the threads. It's unfortunate that the actions of a very few number of members has affected us all.

<puts on admin hat>

[Tony Miller]

Joe,
While I agree with your post on this and the other thread and even commented it may be needed directly to Lynn, I will miss it too.

Every time we have a blowup here and members leave or do battle it is over something in that forum. If we could keep it to car, motorcycles, mentions of new jobs, graduating offspring, etc... it would be a fun place to gain a window into each others lives. That I enjoy greatly.

Yes, I know political topics, religon, etc... are always things people wish to discuss, here and on many groups it only leads to greif. it one wants to argue those subjects there are many, many places on the net to do so. Maybe we can have guidelines for the Off-Topic area about avoiding certain topics.

The members here have many interesting interests and activities to share that are not shaving related and I for one would love to hear them.

I wanted to start a "What did you do this weekend" thread in off topic just to see what everyone does for fun. Much like the "Shave Of The Day" discussion, an ongoing what else we are into place to share. I greatly enjoyed the "Family Night" thread too. I hate to see those go because others cannot keep hot topics out of that area.

My 2 cents.

Tony

[Bruno]

I hope the OT forum comes back quickly.

If anything, the suspension is pointless. Over the last couple of months we have had great debates about freedom, government, religion, ... all without major incidents or disturbances.
People from various backgrounds participated without raising problems. And even if there were some disagreements, they were resolved quickly.

The problems from yesterday and today were caused not by those discussions, but because of the reaction of one member to a moderator action.
whether I agree with the moderation or not is besides the point, as is my view on this whole sordid business. I was not part of it and I will not become so.

But ultimately, the OT forum should not be closed because of the disagreement between 1 member and 1 or more moderators and administrator. That would be throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

I have become friends with various member here through the OT forum, and we share family issues, the good and the bad. To take that away detracts from the family life in SRP. I consider SRP to be not solely a razor forum, but a gentlemans club as well, with a side room where gentlemen can convene and discuss things among each other.

[azjoe]

Originally Posted by Bruno

I hope the OT forum comes back quickly.

So do I.

Originally Posted by Bruno

... the OT forum should not be closed because of the disagreement between 1 member and 1 or more moderators and administrator. That would be throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

I certainly agree with you in principle. And yes, the baby has been thrown out with the bath water.

The closure was indeed precipitated by two members who just couldn't control themselves, but the roots go much deeper than that. In the past year there has been a half dozen or more such threads/explosions.

JMS proved he could manage a thread which involved a highly volatile subject. I was encouraged. But what would have happened if someone didn't cooperate with him... what if they started calling each other jerks (or worse)? At some point a moderator has to step in... and it is precisely at that point everyone goes bonkers. Now it would be easy to conclude that that answer is to not have any moderators? But I can assure you I receive more PMs from members asking me to do something about the conduct of others than from those seeking more freedoms. And I can also assure you we've lost more members due to NOT managing the forums more closely that those that sought less controls. The difference is that the majority of those that left did so because they took offense to some of the religious discussions, or felt there was insufficient moderation of name calling and lack of civility... they simply left without creating a disturbance... we just never see them log in again.

I'm all for bringing back the OT forum... but how do we ensure it stays civil. Is Tony's suggestion to limit the more inflammatory topics the answer?

[syslight]

I for one am sorry to see that it has come to suspending the off topic forum. While there were some threads and posts that I personally found objectionable, most of the time the topics and ideas discussed were civil.

I understand the need for the site owner, administrators and moderators to be able to rein things in when they get too wild, even when it means editing my posts and those of others. I know that this is rarely done but the fact that it NEEDS to be done is more offensive. Lively discussion about difficult topics, among a group as diverse in age, philosophy, religion and political beliefs has a way of getting people over-excited. It also exposes one to points of view you may never have encountered before and thus add to the richness of life. Perhaps a shaving forum in not the best venue for these discussions but maybe it is.

Consider the commonality of the straight razor shave, or for that matter a DE shave. Not many men, in the industrialized areas of the world do things this way but we do. This gives us a strong connection so it is natural to want to find out more about each other and how we think about things. Ideally these exchanges can be learning experiences even if the views expressed are contrary to the ones you hold just being exposed to them may help you to understand why you have your beliefs or even, why others have theirs.

Self-restraint is good it is a sign of maturity. Prior-restraint is wrong it denies people the ability to speak freely, some very good ideas can be lost with this. Ensuring that some do not use these forums as bully pulpits for their viewpoint is a good thing.

I lurked on this forums for a few months before joining and I that through conversations in the off topic area several senior members have felt the need to leave or at least stop contributing to the richness of the community and that has diminished some of the level of expertise in a few of the forums. Certainly, we have lots of remaining experts but the more the merrier!

So I am hoping that the suspension of the Off Topic to be a short lived thing. I also realize that I have no right to expect it to ever be reinstated. Will I leave? Only if requested. I’m already a member of several other boards and have long since found them not to my liking. Will not having lots of interesting threads to read in the Off Topic forum shorten the amount of time I spend on the forum daily, probably, but sometimes I should be reading the TechNet forum that relates to my job.

I have enjoyed this site immensely and am saddened by the things and people who seek to diminish it.

Ok that is my two cents. Now back to you regularly scheduled programming.

[Tony Miller]

Originally Posted by azjoe

I'm all for bringing back the OT forum... but how do we ensure it stays civil. Is Tony's suggestion to limit the more inflammatory topics the answer?

In a true Gentleman's Club, we, the gentlemen would limit the discussion ourselves to topics that did not inflame. Sadly that is missing in most of today's society. While few of us ever see each other face to face or will ever really get to know each other we have one face to present to each other and we do it through our posts and words. We should strive that each interaction between us, whether in person in day to day life, or via a post here on the net, conveys our best selves. Each day we should strive to be the best person we can be, why stir the post just because we can.

Tony

[jaegerhund]

How about we all be grown ups? The off topic section would never make me leave a forum but limiting the speech of its members would ---- I can handle it --- I change my own diapers now ---- let's grow a backbone, it's beneficial in all sorts of ways ---- give me a f-ing break.

Justin

[sensei_kyle]

Unfortunately, the Off Topic forum has become a section where a few people tend to push people's buttons and fan the flames, then cry foul when a moderator steps in to put the fire out.

Restricting topic content is a good first step in keeping OT alive. If people can't abide by the rules, they need to leave or the OT forum needs to leave.

Sad when a few bad apples spoil the bunch.

[RichZ]

I have mixed feelings on this. The OT area is where I went to discuss my sons illness and my work related problems and I have found much comfort there. However I would hate to see a few sh*t stirers upset members and possibly leave because of it.

On this one I feel the majority should rule.. Just my 2 cents.

[azjoe]

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

How about we all be grown ups? The off topic section would never make me leave a forum but limiting the speech of its members would ---- I can handle it --- I change my own diapers now ---- let's grow a backbone, it's beneficial in all sorts of ways ---- give me a f-ing break.

Justin

The problem is that while you might be able to handle all sorts of language, criticisms, insults, etc. not all members can and even less want to. Many members expect a certain level of civility or they leave. So do we want the forums to be only for those like yourself, or do we want to accommodate others with thinner skins?

I don't accept the answer of "well, if you find it offensive, don't read it"... that is not only exclusionary, but it requires those likely to be affected to become offended to make the decision to read or not. Further, I believe there are some legal issues that require forums to take down content people find offensive in some circumstances.

It occurs to me that in our every day lives most all of us are able to manage ourselves in similar situations... we pick the common denominator of civility appropriate to the situation and are perfectly able to interact just fine. For example, most of us use a different vocabulary and demeanor when we are discussing politics at church than we use when we are doing so at the pub... so why can't we do the same here? Why is it so unacceptable to require us to act with the level of civility required here?

[Bruno]

I have put some more thought into this, and I don't think restricting topics is a good long term solution.

for example, assume we have a ban on politics. One of the things I would like to start a topic on is with the oncoming US presidential elections, how US people think about the idea of splitting the electoral college of a state proportionally to the voting results. this is simply a topic of interest to me.

Since this is a political topic, it would be forbidden to discuss it while it is harmless in and of itself.
Then take something like traffic regulations for example. that topic would be allowed, but someone intent on creating troubles could just as easily wreak havoc there. Ditto for alcohol, movies or even Belgian Chocolates. Any topic can b ehijacked or derail.

In the end, I don't think topics should be banned but certain behaviour.
I have been a part of nearly all controversial discussions in the last 6 months or so. I have often disagreed with others, and on occasion really had a serious disagreement / misunderstandin with another member. But in those rare cases things got smoothed out in a couple of hours.

This proves that it all depends on the people. If we hadn't been positive and reasonable men, those things would have gone wrong as well, but they didn't. It is not the topics themselves that cause problems. It is how people react.

If you ban troublemakers or put them on probation or make them read only for a while or restrict them from the OT forum or whatever... Then you punish the right people. Banning topics is punishing the wrong people for the actions of the few.

[floridaboy]

While I do not agree with censorship. I also understand that people are very different. One of the good things I got from the military. The Avatar that i use is my badge from the French Foreign Legion Commando School. I was about 20 years young when I went to that school, With a full platoon of American Infantry. We were treated as the French soldiers. We ate what they ate, lived like they lived. For a young man from the beaches of Florida it was sure different, but it helped us learn what the French soldier was all about, and exposed us to that culture. I like the glimpses into others lives that the off topic forum gives. it does help us look at other people, and with 3,000 members, other countries (mmmm Belgium chocolates). I don't know how many moderators are assigned to each forum, I don't know that any moderators are assigned any were. I do think that Fud, for the circumstance that he is in does a heck of a good job, maybe he could use more help. I don't know. I do know that I have gotten allot of good things from the off topic, ie grilling recipes, What do you look like. I really will Look forward to the return of this section.

well I've spent about a nickels Worth

Phil

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by azjoe

For example, most of us use a different vocabulary and demeanor when we are discussing politics at church than we use when we are doing so at the pub... so why can't we do the same here? Why is it so unacceptable to require us to act with the level of civility required here?

It isn't. My rule since the the day I entered the internet is that I don't write anything I would mind my employer and my family to read.

I follow the same rule when discussing anything in the pub. That way I don't end up on the curb, spitting my teeth out.
Internet forums generally (with some unfortunate exceptions) don't carry that risk, so people sometimes think that anything goes.

[azjoe]

Originally Posted by Bruno

My rule since the the day I entered the internet is that I don't write anything I would mind my employer and my family to read.

That's a great rule and I'm sure it serves you well.

But I have to say... I'm handicapped by the fact that my brother (who can't understand a sentence it doesn't contain half a dozen 4-letter words) and what I can say to my Wife (who rarely uses a 4-letter word and is offended to hear them) are at opposite ends of the spectrum. I'm in real trouble when they're together... which doesn't happen very often for obvious reasons.

[jaegerhund]

Originally Posted by azjoe

The problem is that while you might be able to handle all sorts of language, criticisms, insults, etc. not all members can and even less want to. Many members expect a certain level of civility or they leave. So do we want the forums to be only for those like yourself, or do we want to accommodate others with thinner skins?

I don't accept the answer of "well, if you find it offensive, don't read it"... that is not only exclusionary, but it requires those likely to be affected to become offended to make the decision to read or not. Further, I believe there are some legal issues that require forums to take down content people find offensive in some circumstances.

It occurs to me that in our every day lives most all of us are able to manage ourselves in similar situations... we pick the common denominator of civility appropriate to the situation and are perfectly able to interact just fine. For example, most of us use a different vocabulary and demeanor when we are discussing politics at church than we use when we are doing so at the pub... so why can't we do the same here? Why is it so unacceptable to require us to act with the level of civility required here?

O.K. but let's not go around parading ourselves as Gentlemen (which I don't claim to be anyway) ---to be a gentleman assumes that somewhere in there that you are a man -- this sounds to me more like the acts of a bitter, passive aggressive woman --
yep --- when I vision a gentleman, I think of a well tuned man, with a backbone, who can handle differences of all types without shutting down when the insults start or the discussion gets a little wild --- but if we want some artificial notion of civility, then so be it.

I know, as a good southern boy should, the concept of limiting the talk of religion, sex, and politics in certain situations ----I was raised on it -- but this is of all things an internet forum --- not a church gathering or a family dinner.

In all honesty the off topic section is not that important to me, but the idea of men actually being men is.

Justin

[Lynn]

The one thing I have always liked about this place has been the ol' barber shop feeling we have established including the good ol' barber shop talk and then some. Every now and then when things get heated the responsible parties invariably start casting accusations and get pretty ugly and eventually not even related to the initial discussion. Sometimes the group even attacks the barber, but the shop has always remained open. There seems like there should be some solution short of roaming around the forum in disgust and making anyone else miserable along the way.

Our Moderators who volunteer their time are doing the best they can and I haven't seen the loudest complainers stepping up to that plate to help out ever. Our Admin's could never be repaid for the amount of time they have spent building this place and maintaining it. I would hope that as we look for direction here, we remain thankful to those folks who help make this place available to us all without asking anything for themselves.

We have never been dictatorial here nor have we been the kumbayah place for every one. I really hope we figure this one out as this is an awesome environment with a really super group of people who have grown way beyond simply preserving the art of straight razor shaving which has always been our driving spirit.

Lynn

[FiReSTaRT]

I am sorry that one member raised enough of a stink to push things over the edge. It happens when people take attacks on their ideas too personally. I'd like to see the o/t forum come back, but I'd also like to see more civil behavior in it. Another option would be from a streetbike forum that I'm a member of.. Obviously that forum is full of teenagers with their hormones raging. For that reason, it's heavily moderated, but it has a section called "The Romper Room" where anything goes. How about splitting O/T into 2 forums:
1) Regular O/T, basically families, bikes, construction projects etc etc etc, but no inflamatory topics.
2) Romper Room, where it's a free for all.. Don't like it? Don't read it.

[jnich67]

I think everyone is raising valid points here, but my gut tends to agree to a large extent with Justin. I'll just throw this out there. Every now and then we have these blow ups and someone leaves or may be asked leave. Or some, who are put off, leave without really getting into it. Well, maybe that's ok.

People will make their decisions to leave or stay and that's up to them. As long as the moderators and Lynn are consistent in keeping the site in line with their vision - it is what it is. I think less limitation on discussion is better than more and if some can't deal with that and have to leave, then so be it.

Am I making any sense?

Jordan

[xman]

Listen. If the mods can't or won't handle the OT atmosphere then it must remain absent. The truth is, we were actually doing pretty well policing ourselves. A mountain has been made out of a mole hill here and now there's a bloody big snow ball. (how's that for a mixed metaphor?) Ilija's suggestion has merit, but I don't think the mods have the commitment for that much organisation, or that the membe