12k Shapton Pro or yellow Couticle

DwarvenChef · 06-11-2007, 05:33 AM

I'm at odds on this "Upgrade" in stones. While I tend to not need that fine a stone on my kitchen knives I'm sure I'll want to use it on a few of them. The primary use though would be for razors. My question and headache is what would be better, the versatility of the Shapton or the couticle everyone says is key... Wishing my job payed more and my expences where less

Bruno · 06-11-2007, 07:51 AM

I only have the coticule, but I understood that the shaptons are quite expensive.
Small coticules are pretty cheap on www.theperfectedge.com
If price is a point, then a coticule is the way to go.

JoshEarl · 06-11-2007, 02:41 PM

One thing you might consider if you want to use it for knives, too, is that that the coticule is fairly soft. It only has one side, since the other is slate, so you'd probably want to lap it after each knife honing session. This would wear it down more quickly than you might want to with an expensive stone.

I have no experience with the Shaptons, though. They might be equally soft.

Josh

edk442 · 06-11-2007, 02:43 PM

if you are looking into a shapton as i was, then i might suggest the M15 instead of the Pro series. it's made with natural stone material in a clay binder so it's made to feel more like a natural stone (similar to an awase stone i've head) and are also slower cutting than the pro series and form a slurry, unlike the pro series.

theres also the M5 which is similar to the pro series but with less abbrasive so it cuts slower but has the same feeling. it's also half the thickness with some kind of laminate backing...i think it's like a stepping stone to the pro to see if you want to make the leap in price (it's about half the cost)

either the M5, M15 or Pro series can be found on the japan sites (rakuten or yahoo! japan) you'll need a proxy to buy em but they are considerably cheaper this way (if you take your time you can find the pro series for less than the M15 series. The cheapest M15 i found was 5980yen or $49.00 US but there are also the seller fees and shipping)

there is also a kitayama stone that starts at 8000 grit but produces a result similar to 12000 as a slurry is formed and broken down, price is between the M5 and M15 (cheapest i found was 4300yen = $35.00 US (ass on seller fees and shipping)

but you can also get a tried-tested-and-true 6x2 yellow coticule for $74.95 + shipping for Howard...

food for thought

clehman67 · 10-10-2008, 05:55 AM

Hi,

I was looking into purchasing a finishing/polishing stone as well, but can't decide on the Belgian Coticule or the 12k Shapton. I looked on The Perfect Edge website and he says that the yellow is roughly 8k...so why would someone buy it if they get essentially the same thing with the Norton 4k/8k? I realize that tastes vary, but when one (the coticule) runs around 200 dollars and the Pro Shapton is half that price...in this economy, my tastes can be flexible.

On a separate (but similar) note I bought a Franz Swaty recently and from what I have read on the forums it would fall roughly in the 4k to 6k range...would that be accurate? I've included a couple of snapshots for reference so you know what I'm working with.

Jimbo · 10-10-2008, 06:03 AM

I'd go for the Shapticule - get the 16K ceramic on glass and superglue it to the slate back of a coticule. Best of both worlds there.

No, no. No need for thanks. Your stunned silence speaks more eloquently than words ever could.

James.

Utopian · 10-10-2008, 06:41 AM

I would call the Swaty closer to 8-10K, but it looks like someone beat the hell out of yours judging from the pockmarks in it. Is the back side in the same condition? If not, then use the back side as the stone is homogenous and so identical front and back. On the other hand, if the back is in the same condition, then you might want to lap it before using it.

Depending on just how sharp and perfectionistic you want to go, that Swaty if reconditioned, could be the only finishing stone you need.

Russel Baldridge · 10-10-2008, 07:56 AM

There's no reason to buy a $200 coticule, the 6 inch ones are much more affordable, you really don't need anything more than 4x2 or 6x1.5.

That said, a good finishing stone on the cheap is the chinese 12k stone from woodcraft, just about the best value for the price: Natural Polishing Water Stone - Woodcraft.com

But if you can clean that swaty up it may be good enough, though there's no guarantee on it's grit rating, you may have to try it out to see whether it's worth using.

Bruno · 10-10-2008, 08:26 AM

The grit ratings don't compare that well, because coticule grit are round, whereas sapton and norton ceramic grit is sharp and pointy.
So 8K ceramic grit is much more aggressive than 8K coticule grit.

Personally I'd buy the 6x2 coticule if I had to choose on a budget. It's big enough, and I like natural finishing stones.

JimmyH-AD · 10-10-2008, 02:05 PM

Concerning the M versus the Pro series this off of the Shapton site here,"

Q: What's the difference between the Professional and M15 series? They look pretty much the same except one comes with a plastic case.
A: The professional series stones have 30% more particles by volume than the M series. They are mixed differently and they act quite differently. The 5000 and 8000 in the pro series do not "load up". This has been a problem with some steels in the M series. The 12000 is designed for stainless and will load with the soft iron in a Japanese chisel."

I have the Pros in the complete series from 1 to 30K and if I was doing both kitchen knives and razors I would go for the 12K pro. I assume your knives are stainless ? Shapton also points out that the higher grits are for polishing an already sharp edge so a 4 or in the Pro series a 5K is needed to get to the level of sharpness needed to begin polishing usually with an 8. The 12 and up is icing on the cake.

I have a Swaty like yours and I used it to polish my razors after the 8K before I bought the 12K. It worked well but going back to the knives I find it a bit small for working on large blades.

With razors in mind if I had it to do over again and I was on a budget I would get a 6X2 Coticule with a slurry stone and the Chinese 12K. The coticule is more versatile especially if you get a natural with both sides cutting.

clehman67 · 10-10-2008, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Utopian

I would call the Swaty closer to 8-10K, but it looks like someone beat the hell out of yours judging from the pockmarks in it. Is the back side in the same condition? If not, then use the back side as the stone is homogenous and so identical front and back. On the other hand, if the back is in the same condition, then you might want to lap it before using it.

Depending on just how sharp and perfectionistic you want to go, that Swaty if reconditioned, could be the only finishing stone you need.

Well, I tend to be quite the anal-retentive sort, so perfection is pretty much the only answer

Believe it or not, there are no pockmarks on the stone. What you are looking at are discolorations on the stone surface. The stone surface is actually very smooth on both sides, but I suppose lapping it wouldn't be a bad idea.

If I were to lap the Swaty, what does common wisdom suggest for grit? The only other stones I have are the Norton 4k/8k combo. I also remember reading about someone using wet/dry sandpaper but can't find the thread and can't remember the grit they used.

Thanks!

Charles

JimmyH-AD · 10-10-2008, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clehman67

Well, I tend to be quite the anal-retentive sort, so perfection is pretty much the only answer

Believe it or not, there are no pockmarks on the stone. What you are looking at are discolorations on the stone surface. The stone surface is actually very smooth on both sides, but I suppose lapping it wouldn't be a bad idea.

If I were to lap the Swaty, what does common wisdom suggest for grit? The only other stones I have are the Norton 4k/8k combo. I also remember reading about someone using wet/dry sandpaper but can't find the thread and can't remember the grit they used.

Thanks!

Charles

Here is a thread that may be helpful. Mine was a bear to lap with a DMT D8C 325.

clehman67 · 10-10-2008, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

There's no reason to buy a $200 coticule, the 6 inch ones are much more affordable, you really don't need anything more than 4x2 or 6x1.5.

That said, a good finishing stone on the cheap is the chinese 12k stone from woodcraft, just about the best value for the price: Natural Polishing Water Stone - Woodcraft.com

But if you can clean that swaty up it may be good enough, though there's no guarantee on it's grit rating, you may have to try it out to see whether it's worth using.

Hmm, 35 bucks...that looks like a winner there

Do those chinese stones require slurry like the coticules?

Russel Baldridge · 10-10-2008, 05:05 PM

Neither "require" a slurry, it just speeds up the honing process, but decreases the effective grit rating on the stone.

I like to form a slurry on the Chinese stone but also finish with just water, that way you cut through the lower grit scratches relatively quickly and polish the edge as well.

(or if you are feeling like experimenting try, just putting a microbevel on the edge with a high grit finishing stone; look under the honing section for the part where he describes adding tape to the spine: Care and Feeding of Zowada Razors)

The Chinese stone is nice, and works well, but be warned it's a slow cutter.

clehman67 · 10-11-2008, 05:00 AM

I was thinking about picking up the Norton flattening stone for my 4k/8k combo stone...would that work to lap the Swaty hone as well?

JimmyH-AD · 10-11-2008, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clehman67

I was thinking about picking up the Norton flattening stone for my 4k/8k combo stone...would that work to lap the Swaty hone as well?

The Norton flattening stone is very coarse and rather soft. I would recommend the DMT D8C. It is 325 micron and will do double duty to lap any of your stones, remove chips from damaged blades and will last for years with no need to lap it. More $ but more bang for the buck.

clehman67 · 10-11-2008, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyH-AD

The Norton flattening stone is very coarse and rather soft. I would recommend the DMT D8C. It is 325 micron and will do double duty to lap any of your stones, remove chips from damaged blades and will last for years with no need to lap it. More $ but more bang for the buck.

Sorry if I'm a bit slow on the uptake here, but I am not able to find any DMT hones labled D8C. I've looked on the Japan Woodworker website (wicked collection of hones on that site) but can't find any stating they are a D8C; is this an actual model name or a nickname for the hone?

This darn "hobby" is rapidly turning into an "addiction"

Thanks!

Charles

JimmyH-AD · 10-11-2008, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clehman67

Sorry if I'm a bit slow on the uptake here, but I am not able to find any DMT hones labled D8C. I've looked on the Japan Woodworker website (wicked collection of hones on that site) but can't find any stating they are a D8C; is this an actual model name or a nickname for the hone?

This darn "hobby" is rapidly turning into an "addiction"

Thanks!

Charles

Here they are. You'll be lucky if you get away with just RAD, HAD is arguably worse.

A holder is handy to have along with it.

Bruno · 10-11-2008, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clehman67

I was thinking about picking up the Norton flattening stone for my 4k/8k combo stone...would that work to lap the Swaty hone as well?

No.
The norton flattening stone is very soft, and only suitable for norton waterstones.
If you'd use in on your swaty, you'd destroy the flatness of the norton flattening stone and round the swaty.

If you want to flatten anything but nortons, buy a DMT D8C. These will last forever if properly cared for.sssss

crazycliff200843 · 10-12-2008, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruno

No.
The norton flattening stone is very soft, and only suitable for norton waterstones.
If you'd use in on your swaty, you'd destroy the flatness of the norton flattening stone and round the swaty.

If you want to flatten anything but nortons, buy a DMT D8C. These will last forever if properly cared for.sssss

I can attest to the dishing out of the norton. I haven't had it for more than a couple of weeks and the grooves are almost gone.