[Must Dash]

Some of you may have seen a thread on Badger & Blade that started with the posting of a video of an animal (which turned out to be a raccoon dog) being skinned alive in China. As a result, several of us were prompted to try to obtain information from shaving brush manufacturers and retailers on how hair from badgers is obtained.

A few people, such as Bernd Bloss of Shavemac, expressed genuine concern about the way badger hair is obtained. However, in general, the responses - and in particular from the British companies - showed considerable ignorance, indifference or both. Of all the responses, the one stand out was Mr Christian Mueller, Managing Director of Muhle Pinsel in Germany. From what I understand, his company also supplies Edwin Jagger which, in turn, supplies Crabtree & Evelyn.

Mr Mueller entered into lengthy correspondence with me and showed considerable compassion and professionalism. He travelled to China for business recently and promised to send me details of the information that he obtained. His email is reproduced below.

Cheers

Jeremy

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________

Content of email received from Mr Mueller 27 August 2008

I was promising to get back to you with details about my trip. I apologize that this took longer than I initially planned.

As mentioned, before I travelled China to source raw materials for our products and also visited some fur trader as well as hair dressing companies throughout the country. In prior I prepared a list of question that I sent out before my departure. Here is what I have been informed as well as found out myself. I have faced them with the video and stated that we cannot tolerate such practices at all. It is understandable that I cannot trace the line all the way back to the individual hunters but I did make clear that the responsibility is also on the traders who should pass on the information to the individuals. I stated that our main concern is the way they are being killed and that that this needs to be carried out as humanely as possible.

1. Are the animals taking from the wild or are they farm raised?

The animals are generally taking from the wild. Hunters can apply for a license to hunt a certain number of badgers. I have been told that there is a close season to guarantee the survival of the population. Badgers can not be farm raised due to their wild nature.

2. From which regions do the animals come from?

Northern regions of China such as Shaanxi, Gansu, Tsinghai, Sinkiang, Inner Mongolia. Badgers dwell in hilly, densely wooded regions.

3. Which species are hunted or raised?

Arctonyx collaris (hog badger) - and Meles Meles (Eurasian badger)

4. Nature of the hunt, traps, dogs, lamping, gassing?

Mostly gassing which is most efficient method of the hunt. They are gassed in the sett, mostly with the aid of a tube connecting to the animal sett. This practice is performed in Europe too to control the population and supposed to be the most effective and least painful to the animals.

5. time of the hunt (are there close seasons and will they maintained)?

The hunting season starts in September all the way though January. The close season starts in February through to the fall

6. is a overpopulation classified as pest in China and considered a threat to crop and livestock?

It is considered as vermin. The population has always been controlled as it can spread rabies and bovine tuberculosis

7. is the population monitored by the government?

The population is monitored by the chinese federal nature agency as well as by the IUCN. Here are the links to the two species 2007 IUCN Red List – Search / 2007 IUCN Red List – Search

8. is the meat / fat of the animal commercially used as well?

This is one fact that I was always hesitating to believe. The meat, especially in the northern regions of the country, is a source of food. The consumption of the meat is more widespread than thought. It cannot be said that the badgers are mainly hunted for the meat, as the hair is more valuably, however meat and fat is a important by product of the trade. The fat is used in the Chinese medicine as a rheumatism treatment.

I will travel to China again in October and hope to find out more information on the subject. I am glad we were able to make the suppliers aware of the fact that people in Europe and elsewhere are concerned about the way the hair is gained.

Best regards,

Christian Mueller

[ByronTodd]

This is a more appropriate area for this thread. I am also posting a warning that links to gratuitous bloody or violent videos will be removed without question and without notification. You should be aware that a similar discussion regarding this has already taken place and was closed: Do they kill the badger to get the fur?

Thank you for your cooperation.

[xman]

This is great information Christian. Thanks!

X

[Kees]

Byron, why not leave it to the reader whether or not they want to activate a certain link?

[ByronTodd]

Video links are automatically converted to be embedded in the post - it does not show as a link - and unless you have a flash blocker active, you could simply pull up the thread and the video start playing.

[icedog]

Originally Posted by ByronTodd

Video links are automatically converted to be embedded in the post - it does not show as a link - and unless you have a flash blocker active, you could simply pull up the thread and the video start playing.

Actually, in post number 5 of the previously mentioned thread, there is a link on which one must click to open the video. I put it in as a link and it is still a link. I think we are adults here.

[Whiggamore]

That is very interesting. I'm glad that this very legitimate use of these animals is not causing them to suffer or die needlessly and that trapping is being carried on in a sustainable way. That the rest of the animal is not being wasted and that persons and livestock are protected from illness is to be applauded. Trapping in the 21st Century really is humane and brings to mind the gentleness that St. Francis of Assisi showed animals.

It is unfortunate that this understand of stewardship wasn't present sooner in our modern history, maybe then we could have continued to enjoy luxurious materials instead of their modern imitations. Tortoiseshell scales or an ivory brush, for example.

Byron, thank you. Seeing videos like this are disturbing and often come from political sources eager to misrepresent actual trapping practices. I wouldn't watch people being tortured, either.

Anyways, lather up!

[Ditch Doc]

I think the creator of this thread had much more relevant and mature information than was in the previously mentioned thread.

[bpave777]

Thank you Jeremy. I appreciate your research into this.

[Kees]

Originally Posted by Whiggamore

Trapping in the 21st Century really is humane and brings to mind the gentleness that St. Francis of Assisi showed animals.

Not everyone agrees with that. An animal trapped starts to panic, many dislocate the shoulder or hip joint which is very painful, some animals even bite the trapped leg off and limp on making them easy pray for predators or causing slow death due to infection or starvation as they can no longer hunt.

[gssixgun]

This thread is not going to degrade into a discussion on the merits of hunting and trapping..... Keep in on track and tread lightly....

This is the second warning on this thread!!!!!!

[netsurfr]

Originally Posted by Kees

Not everyone agrees with that. An animal trapped starts to panic, many dislocate the shoulder or hip joint which is very painful, some animals even bite the trapped leg off and limp on making them easy pray for predators or causing slow death due to infection or starvation as they can no longer hunt.

Kees -
While I agree with you on most things regarding razors and straight shaving, I feel that you are relating something with which you have no personal experience. I trapped for over ten years to make ends meet and to put food on the table. I never had an animal do any such thing and they were always dispatched humanely. The bottom line it that a trap line is always run at dawn before the animals have an opportunity to get agitated. While trapping is not something I would do today, it provided meat on the table and furs for profit at a time when I needed it.

[Whiggamore]

Originally Posted by Kees

Not everyone agrees with that. An animal trapped starts to panic, many dislocate the shoulder or hip joint which is very painful, some animals even bite the trapped leg off and limp on making them easy pray for predators or causing slow death due to infection or starvation as they can no longer hunt.

Everyone doesn't agree on anything, ever.

It is sad that some hunters and trappers do not practice humane methods. "It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly." These people should be disciplined. Let us all be thankful that this is the exception though and not the rule. Too bad animals, badgers and their extremely violent, brutal behaviour comes to mind, don't show this same concern for the welfare of their fellow animals.

[gssixgun]

After two warnings on this thread I am closing it down, it seems that we cannot stay away from a discussion of hunting and trapping on this subject......

You can PM me with any questions

[gssixgun]

I am opening this so Must Dash can post the follow up conversation with Mr Jagger then closing it back down again..... please no other posts !!!

[Must Dash]

I spent over an hour on the telephone a few days ago with Neil Jagger of Edwin Jagger. Firstly, I need to make a correction to my earlier post - and a small apology. Although I was aware that the two companies, Muhle and Edwin Jagger, work together, I was not aware of how close the relationship is between them. Nor was I aware of the extent to which Neil Jagger has been involved with Christian Mueller in seeking information about the way in which badger hair is sourced and in selecting their joint suppliers.

I would like to make a couple of observations. A five minute conversation is sufficient time for any company to provide a quick spin on the facts, tell me what they think I would like to hear and add a layer of gloss. An hour long, far-ranging, discussion is a very different matter. Neil Jagger very clearly has considerable knowledge about the way that his industry operates. It is equally clear that he cares deeply not just about the standard of products that his company manufactures but also about the way in which his company participates in the industry. He is willing to be open and transparent about what he knows about the manner in which badgers are caught and killed and what questions are still unanswered. By the end of the conversation we had both learned more about the value of communication and dialogue and I put down the phone impressed with his integrity. Again, I feel compelled to contrast this with other shaving brush manufacturers who were repeatedly asked to provide meaningful information and repeatedly failed to do so.

Neil Jagger also informed me that he and Christian Mueller have undertaken to provide a much more detailed statement around the end of October. Having received answers to their questions, they are now seeking to verify those answers through other parties and through corroborating information. With this comes the caveat that not everything can be ascertained and, as Christian Mueller noted in his earlier response, it is not possible to trace the line back to individual hunters.

Again, for those of you who may have doubts, I want to make it clear that my involvement with the shaving industry is only as a consumer. However, as a consumer, I care a lot about who I buy from. The fact that Mr Mueller and Mr Jagger are doing so much to lead the charge, to me at least, says a great deal about them and the nature of the companies that they run.

I also believe that this reinforces the increased role that technology enables us to have as consumers. Forums such as this one, and the open discussions that take place on sites such as Facebook, MySpace, Twitter etc. make it much harder for companies to keep secrets, and problems, from their customers. The smarter ones understand this and have learned the value of being open and honest in their communication. Other companies have yet to catch on. (Steps down from soapbox.)

Cheers


Jeremy


Note: The moderators have kindly reopened this thread temporarily in order to enable me to correct and add detail to my original post. Thank you.