[Spike J]

I saw Barack Obama's speech at the Tiergarten in Berlin earlier. It was the first time I had heard him & have to say he is an impressive orator. it was also the first time any of us outside the US of A really had a measure of the man. He is being compared with Kennedy here. His points such as they were, were impressive. My friends agreed that he would get our vote, not that it counts. One thought it was so brave that he should be watching for the assassins bullet right now.

So what did you think? It was one of the finer orations of recent years IMHO. Opinions from all corners welcome, especially fellow Europeans
Yankees welcome too

[BeBerlin]

Originally Posted by Spike J

So what did you think?

Listened for the first time to a speech of the fella in full length. Could not help it, mind you. My home is within shouting range of the Siegessäule, so to speak.

Damn good show. Roughly one hour of free speech. Flawlessly delivered. And he made one point that certainly won the hearts, if not minds, of the people of Berlin: "This city, of all cities, knows the dream of freedom," Yes, we do. Because we can, too.

Schizophrenic as it may sound, Germans love the US, but hate George W. Bush. That is fine, because 99% of the rest of the world do, too. Got to give that to the man: He tried hard, and he succeeded, in alienating the rest of the world from US politics. Democracy in countries with a 2000 year old tradition of fiefdoms and civil war? Yeah, right.

The speech in itself seemed to me somewhat thin. Personally, I would have expected a tad more substance. But maybe it was not the right occasion. What he did deliver, though, was a speech that instilled some hope into the hearts (not, mind you, minds) of my peers that the US, under his leadership, might find back some of the things that made it our role model in the 50s and 60s. There is a tangible "yearning for a new America" over here. I wonder, though, if the man will be able to deliver.

It is all nice and dandy delivering speeches about foreign politics in a foreign country. But that will not change the domestic problems the US appear to be facing. Global warming, free trade, non-proliferation. All good. But I doubt whether he can grab the American voters's serious attention for these problems.

Now, enough whining already. The wife and I were moved by his speech. And yes, he would get my vote.

Originally Posted by Spike J

Opinions from all corners welcome, especially fellow Europeans

Well, you know what they say about opinions: "Opinions are like arseholes. Everybody's got one, everybody is entitled to his or her own." Might be an old Europe thing, though.

[nun2sharp]

Is the entire thread off limits to Americans or just the poll. Wont feel bad if I cant play, it would be interesting to sit back and listen for a change, If I can just keep my da&@ mouth shut. Thats what would hurt.

[nun2sharp]

This is one of the greatest problems I have with Obama, yes he is a great orator, but what he says has little substance, he talks about hope and change,hope and change, but never a plan of action. He stirs the heart but not the mind.

[hoglahoo]

More fluff,. but I guess it was time for the rest of the world to see a great show by Obama. He is mesmerizing, isn't he? Many of us in the US are ready for some specifics and some clarity under all of the smoke and mirrors, and many don't mind one way or the other I guess

[JohnP]

Personally I don't think either candidate is that great.
Obama says what his writers and staff tell him to say in order to get him elected. He has an entire staff whose only job is making him look and sound good in the correct light. Which is why, IMHO the man does very well at rehearsed speeches, but not so well at off-the-cuff work. His opponent is played in the media to be a feeble old man, about to die, which is also misguided.
The part that bothers me most, is that for many of the topics I care about, the candidates are exactly the same only with a different political party attached to their titles.
I know also that many hate the current US president, but I also wonder how much of this is because of the truth and how much of this is because of the blatantly one-sided coverage aimed at him in the past couple years by the US media, who, to be honest, have lost all credibility at being balanced, and are essentially an engine of the democratic party. If anything is done that can be perceived as a blunder, it airs for months and months and months, with each opportunity being taken to make sure the whole world knows this occurred under Pres. Bush's watch-the implication being, if a democrat were president, the world would be a better place. Perhaps it's just circumstancial but to me it is interesting that former Pres. Clinton could bomb the @#$ out of Belgrade and other areas conveniently when a certain dress was aired, and he was loved as a savior of the Kosovar people, preventing "evil Serbs" from their "ethnic cleansing". Now, I honestly don't know what happened or didn't happen in Serbia or Croatia and the like, but there were all sorts of claims of mass graves and such, which didn't pan out. In another instance, a medicine factory or some such was bombed with cruise missiles. A warlord essentially a gang leader intimidated the administration into withdrawing troops with the deaths of just a few soldiers. No wonder OBL felt we were harmless at the time. Contrast this to coverage of the current president in Iraq. One of OBL's money trails led straight to Iraqi intelligence (although admittedly not all of them did) Iraq had lots and lots of yellow cake Uranium and not a single power generating reactor, and certain areas were deemed "off limits" to UN inspectors prior to the invasion. So, of course, they didn't find anything in the places they were allowed to look. This has since been morphed somehow from "UN inspectors didn't find anything" to "Bush lied-or invented the whole thing". Mass graves have indeed been found in Iraq, mostly old ones, but there all the same, and people were stepping over each other in the beginning to point out officials who had made their entire families disappear. Yet, Pres. Bush is not a democrat, he is a republican. Election years being what they are, efforts have been called "Bush's vietnam" "unwinnable war" Marines have been called murderers by high ranking democrat officials before even the evidence was looked at (they've since been tried and exonnerated, btw) not because it was true, but because they felt that by making America look bad under a republican president, they in turn would look good. We all know this is flawed logic, but unless people dig deeper than the surface, it works. Tragically, most Americans aren't interested in digging, and Europeans, who would have to dig even deeper still (hey, if our OWN networks are saying it it MUST be true...) if they want to know the truth. So, rather than make Americans hate the republican party, the net effect has been to make EVERYONE hate America. Great job, guys.
I think both political parties in the US have been hijacked, the democrats by people even the Soviet Union would have considered too extreme on the left, and the Republicans by globalists who cow to anything that will help their standing in the international groups they seek to appease.
It's all a shame and a sham at the same time.
Just my thoughts, anyway.

Obama is a great orator-and projects himself well. Unfortunately, as has been proven in the past, such does not make a good leader. His speeches often contradict each other and almost always agree with whatever his advisors say is popular with his current audience. A polished liar is still a liar. From what i"ve seen of McCain, it is apparent to me that globalists and others have taken over perhaps both parties. Otherwise there were a few candidates I would much rather support who perhaps, were quietly asked to bow out. Waiting one's "turn" has no place in America IMHO if one happens to be who the people want. I believe the parties have overextended their usefulness and are now contributing to a lack of leadership choices here, because each party knows it has at least a 50% chance of having it in the bag, regardless of whether they truly represent their constituents once elected.
Sorry, I'm rambling (it's what I do best, apparently) again.
Back to you Europeans and what you thought of Mr. Obama's speech delivery.

John P.

[gugi]

I guess I had to see the speech. As expected, Mr. Obama performed quite well. All candidates have always had staffers write their speeches (at least the ones who actually plan to get elected), some are better at delivering them than others and from what I understand Mr. Obama has been a lot more involved with the speech writing than it's the norm in this business. Which is good - he is a politician and his primary job is to convince people to vote for him (and as far as I understand that's something he has learned to do in recent years as his first speaches are reported to be a rather unimpressive).
Apparently Mr. McCain has some ground to gain as far as show goes. As far as public speaking goes he seems to be somewhat behind, but at least he's followed the advice to loose the sarkasm - rather european trait which tends to backfire in frong of big crowds.

Good speeches of course don't imply good leaders, but good motivational speeches certainly don't hurt one's prospects to get a leadership position in the first place. As far as what he was saying in that speech - well as expected he is saying what his audience would like to hear - that the former US policy of "we're doing what we think is right and don't really care what you think" is probably going to change if he gets elected. To what extent it will happen is a whole other question. To his credit he did mention immigration, which is not all that popular point in Europe.

Interestingly he tried to make a compelling case to support Afganistan, but somehow the Iraqi people didn't qualify for the same. Of course, the Iraqis don't have to fight the oppression of the Taliban and poverty and oh, their poppy production has somehow been lagging in recent years - better step it up if they want to qualify for the joint American-European help.

Yes it's just words, but the "we shall fight on the beaches" and "I have a dream..." were just words as well. From what I've seen from (mostly US) elections, policies don't really matter that much - what matters is how much people 'like' the candidate. So if those are the rules, a smart politician will just play by them - secure as much money as they can (cerainly more than the opposition), then buy as much and as good ads and media exposure as they can, and certainly make sure that they are likeable....

And no I'm not blaming America - in my country things are even worse than that. I'm just noting that the world we live in isn't necessarily what our ideal world would be. So what's that got to do with the speech of Obama - ah yeah the poll. Well, I don't vote, not in US elections, but if I were to vote his speeches wouldn't be enough.

[ScottS]

Originally Posted by JohnP

The part that bothers me most, is that for many of the topics I care about, the candidates are exactly the same only with a different political party attached to their titles.

Which issues are those??

[jockeys]

I am SO ibtl.


anyhow, I've never listened to any political speech and I never will. I just look at a candidate's voting record... that tells me all I need to know. even without hearing the speech, I know ahead of time that it's full of deception and half-truths... because a politician gave it, not an honest human being.

there's an old joke that goes, "how can you tell when a politician is lying? his lips are moving"

voting record is only way to know what a candidate is really like.

[hoglahoo]

When in Rome, say what the Romans want to hear

[ProfessorChaos!]

Originally Posted by nun2sharp

This is one of the greatest problems I have with Obama, yes he is a great orator, but what he says has little substance, he talks about hope and change,hope and change, but never a plan of action. He stirs the heart but not the mind.

He can read a speach well, with the best of them. For better or worse, I find most of what he says to be either disagreeable or offensive or both. When forced to speak extemporaneously, he comes across as arrogant and condescending. I find hope in threads like this, one in which others see through the clever ruse and wonder what lurks behind the closely guarded veil.

As an aside, I find it very, very interesting that he claims to be the one who can heal the racial divide in American yet is always talking about his race. He says that he wants to move beyond race and yet it is one of his most consistent talking points.

[I am Spartacus]

wait IBTL with one more

[Ockham]

I usually don't enter those discussions, as I have a bad temper and they have the property to overheat very quickly...

But what is interesting here is what people form outside of Europe (read USA) think of Europe (as it was one big uniform entity btw)... Europeans are:

1) Stupids: the cannot distinguish between good and bad president and therefore hate bad president and love good president - and if they love a good president, it must be by mistake
2) idiots: the cannot see falsehood that is so evident that a tank could go through it
3) confused: they still are all Socialist
4) altruistic: they give 70% of their salary to their government
5) criminals: they pillaged and raped all the world, from the biggest mountain to the deepest see. They are responsible for everything bad in this world.
6) jealous: the Europeans cannot accept that now the one who are reaping and pillaging are the USA
7) arrogant: the cannot support to be second best
8) selfish: we don't help Africa and care only about ourselves
9) coward: all Europeans gave to Germany during WWII

If we can discuss about 1 and 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 are simply wrong, and quite insulting.
I think there is enough here to ask for the thread to be closed, don't you?

[ByronTodd]

Closed to allow continent / national loyalties cool off.

[ByronTodd]

I'll re-open this for the time being. It will be watched very closely. If it tips towards another us vs. them shouting match, it will be removed from public consumption.

Remember to keep your posts friendly and informative. If you can't say it without condescension or insults, don't say it at all.

[hoglahoo]

Thanks ByronT!

It's nice to see so many people worldwide are interested in US politics, maybe mutual interests can result in something good for a change

[Chris L]

Originally Posted by Ockham

But what is interesting here is what people form outside of Europe (read USA) think of Europe (as it was one big uniform entity btw)... Europeans are:

Not thought of in the same ways by all Americans. I for one do NOT think of Europeans in any of the negative ways you've described.

All Americans do NOT think alike just as all PEOPLE do not think alike. My plea to all Europeans: Please do not regard all Americans as fitting the "ugly American" stereotype. We're not all like that.

I also do not normally respond to such political arguments and finger pointing as to whose forefathers allegedly are the most to blame for this or that. For blame, we can go back to our very humanity and as such, point the finger at all of us. It's all innate human error and we're all human.

Chris L

[I am Spartacus]

BBSL (back before second lock)

there does seem to be a tendency for the rest of the world to butt in or condemn when we do something that doesn't square with Europe's values system
even people from the same country don't think the same

look at it like country boy vs city boy

if one guy was raised shootin rabbits with his shotgun and hunting hogs with his pit (bull)

and the other

lost a friend in a drive by shooting and was bitten by a mean dog

obviously they will feel differently about the same subject
thing is, it isn't the same subject

if they discuss leash laws, obviously they will differ

if they discuss the owning of firearms, obviously they will differ

fact of the matter is that they may be using the same words but are speaking two different languages
until one lives the life of the other, they will not see things the same

city people tend to think in boundaries and barriers
put the dog on a leash, no WHATEVER allowed, WHATEVER free zone

country folk look at it along the lines of control
control your dog, as long as no one gets rowdy there won't be a problem, take the bull by the horns

most all of the Europeans I've met have been city folk (culture wise)
the main exception would be the Russians.
but the Russians were a little..... um...... they were very Russian.


to understand is to forgive

[riooso]

I think what riles most Americans is there are a lot of other Americans that say "We should be more civilized, like the Europeans". We don't want to be like Europeans anymore than Europeans want to be like Americans. Countries in Europe each have their own distinct problems and should not be lumped together.


I am an American. I believe in God and Country but I do not force my beliefs down others throats in public or otherwise. I respect others opinions as long as they do not try to destroy me for mine. My country has come to the aid of Europe with blood and treasure for the better part of a century. When I go to my grandfathers grave in France, I cry alone but I am proud because he did the right thing in helping when he did. The countries that Barack is visiting are trying to accomplish what? They are making a statement by allowing the huge gatherings of people so that Barack can speak to them, for what purpose? It is seen in this country as an attempt to sway our elections, if we did that in this country we would be verbally taken to task for such obvious pandering, as well we should.


The European countries have more to worry about than the US. I have friends in France and in England and they are worried about the direction of their countries and hope that rest of the civilized world can come together against evil elements that will be in our future.


Take Care,
Richard