[xman]

Originally Posted by JohnP

P.S. DO you have him under your cape? I think the reward is *still* good-I'd just wait until the dollar climbs a little higher again

Wish I did. I could use a few bucks.

[onimaru55]

Who needs conspiracy theories.

Politicians are always honest... except when their lips are moving...

[JohnP]

Originally Posted by davisbonanza

John,
I think you are right about the "government media/ education complex". While we are at it, let's throw big pharma on the fire too. As far as the military industrial complex goes, I think you are taking that one a bit light. In 1961 you mentioned they controlled with the fear of the "Red Army threat" but at least that was something tangible, Red Army=Soviet State= a place on the map. In this age the threat is an ideal "Terrorism". This ideal allows our government to fund the military industrial complex to no end and to go anywhere terrorists may be lurking.

Big pharma is one I'd not thought about, I have mixed feelings about that one. I do think they have too much control in the medical schools, but I could be wrong. I don't believe, however that the terror threat has been put in place to allow the government to fund the "military industrial complex". To be honest, such a complex, as it existed in 1961 when Eisenhower made that statement, doesn't exist. Currently there are a few large corporations that make money from military projects as well as a variety of smaller ones, and there always will be. This does not demonstrate that the government decides to go to war (a political decision) in order to make money for these companies. Such would be like throwing a party and claiming the purpose of it was to make money for PepsiCo and Frito-Lay because people would be drinking sodas and munching on potato chips or eating pizza.
Right now these companies are fighting over scraps just to survive; the big contracts are all gone, and some of them even went to FOREIGN companies, a dangerous precedent, IMHO. If these people are causing wars to increase their power or some such, they're sure going about it in an inefficient way and with the wrong people. Start one with China-then they could make all KINDS of money, because we'd probably NEED some of those superweapons.

Originally Posted by davisbonanza

You are right though, the media and the classroom have much more control over the population now than they did in the sixties. With that being said, I have a hard time believing that the industries and the military had more ability to control fear in the sixties than they do now. I also don't believe it matters what retired officer is getting which company X contract, the contract is going to go to some defense contractor as long as the government keeps up their perpetual war against something that they can't beat or even find. That is what the military industrial complex is, it doesn't matter which company gets the job.

One contractor or another is going to get the job in spite of if there is a war or not, because we have armed forces (wisely) to protect our interests. Who does what with us depends on the political will of the people and those they elect, for the most part. I agree "terrorism" is a vague enemy, however since long before the Bush administration the US and other countries have kept tabs on groups deemed "terrorist organizations". There have been a number of nations that openly supported terrorist organizations as a way of warfare by proxy. Hate Jews? train Hezbollah and Hamas. Hate EVERYONE (besides those like oneself) join Al Qaeda or a ream of similar groups.
For such people, the bill is due, in my opinion, and it's easier to say "War on Terror" than "Al Qaeda/Jama Islamiyah/Abu Nidal(remember them?)/Hezbollah/insert terror organization name here/we're coming to kill you war" Its largely been working, regardless of what one calls it and in spite of many who thought it was hopeless. Again, public opinion being shaped by the screen in their living rooms and not so much on what truly was happening there. Not that any of us should be surprised.

Originally Posted by davisbonanza

xman,
Thanks for the great post! I agree, the official story is a complete lie. Actually, I don't believe anything that comes from the mouth of the State. Keep searching for the truth no matter how futile it may seem to be.

I agree with the notion of being cautious about what we are told by the state; however also remember it is WE who elected the "state" in the first place. Pay attention at that ballot box.
I disagree with the inside job theory. If reports seem vague and like they are covering each others ##$ it is because they ARE covering each other's @##. Not because they planned everything, but being politicians (and probably attorneys as well) each person sought not only for a scapegoat-as if they would have taken the threat seriously even if it had been phoned in to them the day of-and to distance themselves from the bad decisions and simultaneously, if possible, embroil the opposing party in as much blame as possible.

Sometimes a disaster planned by a group of people who we underestimated badly-is just a disaster planned by a group of people we underestimated badly. I've also heard somewhere that the simplest explanation is also usually the truest one.


John P.


oh and X...I wouldn't be above putting him up for the highest bidder...to a point, anyway. I'd love to retire. Tomorrow.

[Chimensch]

There were many strange things that happened on 9/11 ... almost too many to count. Personally, the most fascinating, and well documented, is the story of the "Five Dancing Israelis". If you don't know about it, I guarantee you will find it worth your while to read.

[onimaru55]

Originally Posted by Chimensch

There were many strange things that happened on 9/11 ... almost too many to count. Personally, the most fascinating, and well documented, is the story of the "Five Dancing Israelis". If you don't know about it, I guarantee you will find it worth your while to read.

That is interesting indeed. I was under the impression Bin Laden claimed responsibility for 911 not denied it.
I think someone said it earlier 'we will never know the truth'

[JohnP]

Originally Posted by Chimensch

There were many strange things that happened on 9/11 ... almost too many to count. Personally, the most fascinating, and well documented, is the story of the "Five Dancing Israelis". If you don't know about it, I guarantee you will find it worth your while to read.

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll have to check it out.
I definitely do not claim we know what happened *exactly* but I also have a difficult time buying the elaborate conspiracy theories bouncing around today.
I'll give it a look shortly.

John P.

[wdhall]

Originally Posted by Chimensch

There were many strange things that happened on 9/11 ... almost too many to count. Personally, the most fascinating, and well documented, is the story of the "Five Dancing Israelis". If you don't know about it, I guarantee you will find it worth your while to read.

I saw the article. My favorite part was this:

Caller: There's a minivan heading toward the Holland tunnel, I see the guy by Newark Airport mixing some junk and he has those sheikh uniform.

Hmm. Dancing, sheikh uniforms?

[IMG]file:///C:/Users/dale/Desktop/200px-Sheik_Yerbouti.jpeg[/IMG]

[onimaru55]

Zappa !!!

Someone's showing their age... Maybe me.

I'm a dancin' fooooo-oooo-ooool.

[denmason]

Originally Posted by onimaru55

That is interesting indeed. I was under the impression Bin Laden claimed responsibility for 911 not denied it.
I think someone said it earlier 'we will never know the truth'

I remember seeing a clip of "Tim Osman" AKA Osama Bin Ladin denying responsibility for 911 and reading from CNN 9/17/2001: "The U.S. government has consistently blamed me for being behind every occasion its enemies attack it. "I would like to assure the world that I did not plan the recent attacks, which seems to have been planned by people for personal reasons," bin Laden's statement said.
"I have been living in the Islamic emirate of Afghanistan and following its leaders' rules. The current leader does not allow me to exercise such operations."
Take it as you will, In the USA, we allow our public opinion to be formed by the media, which is controlled by whomever is in political power, who is essentially paid to do what is profitable for its select wealthy contributors. We the people have lost the ability to think for ourselves and to demand all of the facts. How can we make informed decisions and thus support our democracy in this way?
United we stand, divided we fall. This does not mean that if we are in dissent of the political administration, that we are unpatriotic or “Axis of Evil”. Discussion and opposed views are how a democracy is suppose to work where everyone is informed and equally takes part in the collective decision and majority is considered the answer.

[Eismann]

Ok, we are supposed to follow these conspiracy theories. That the government brought down the towers, building 7, etc. Ok fine. Where are the people who were on the planes? If George Bush is such an idiot, how did he pull it off? If you can't trust 3 people to keep a secret at work, how do you expect the number of people who would be necessary to make this happen, keep quiet? Do you actually realize how much prep goes into a controlled demo of a building? Maybe the buildings looked like controlled demos is because that is what a building that is coming down, looks like. Why is it so easy for people to believe something like Loose Change, but impossible for them to believe exactly what they saw? Do I believe that the government isn't telling us everything about what happened, but I don't think that what they are holding back isn't that they were in on it.

Did we actually land on the moon? Did the Lindbergh baby, really get kidnapped?

None of this actually matters anyhow, the Bilderberg Group runs everything.

[Bruno]

I just moved the talk about democracy / elections to a new thread because it is interesting enough to warrant its own thread, and the original thread will stay on topic.

[Bruno]

It is also worth noting that there are no data points about buildings collapsing on their own because that has never happened.
The 3 WTC towers are also by far the largest buildings to ever collapse (or so I was told) so even if there was data on self-collapse (which there isn't) it would be so far out of the known that it would be meaningless.

[JohnP]

OK,
I looked at the article. I think it digs a bit hard for evidence to support its assumptions. Looking for the same letters in a moving van company as are in the name "Mossad" is bordering on ridiculous, but the author felt it important to list it. Not sure whether to laugh, or look to the sky in despair that there are professional writers who would believe such things. Perhaps there are interviews with Bin Laden claiming he had nothing to do with the bombings...perhaps he wasn't in the airplane, after all. He is as I understand in the unfortunate position of being the head of the same organization that tried destroying the WTC a previous time, and plans signifying much of how 9-11 happened captured in the possession, as I understand, of lower people in his organization. The part that is most embarrassing, is that it is likely there are people who were saying action needed to be taken against certain individuals, but were no doubt stayed by people higher in the chain who could not bring themselves to believe such a thing would really happen, or that it would happen so soon.
John P.

[Chimensch]

John P., the important part is simply that five Israelis knew that 9/11 was going to happen and set up cameras to document the event.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Chimensch

John P., the important part is simply that five Israelis knew that 9/11 was going to happen and set up cameras to document the event.

Wasn't the first impact recorded only with 1 lousy handycam?
If it is only the 2nd impact that they shot, then it just means that NYC has a number of mossad agents or sympathizers.

[Chimensch]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Wasn't the first impact recorded only with 1 lousy handycam?
If it is only the 2nd impact that they shot, then it just means that NYC has a number of mossad agents or sympathizers.

The Israelis were set up before the first plane but their version was never published because they were arrested shortly afterward, held for a couple of months and then deported.

[jockeys]

BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Fusion power seeks super steels

cool article about steel failures during the WTC event.

[Bruno]

Interesting article, but alas...

Most of us know that steel becomes pliable way below melting point, but of course the steel in the WTC towers was magic steel that could only be destroyed by high explosives.

The rebar I use to poke the charcoal of my BBQ can be flattened with a stone if I've left it in the fire for a minute, even though it is not even starting to glow red.
But that's probably a figment of my own imagination as well. Either that or I've been BBQing with incendiary explosives all along.

Sadly, conspiracy nuts will still think Elvis did it (and now the British are in on the consipracy as well) , and scientists still think that the scientific explanation is correct.