The Great Razor Analysis Project

JoshEarl · 05-12-2008, 02:57 PM

At least, that's what I'm hoping this will be.

We've all noticed the difference between a Sheffield and a Solingen, or between carbon and stainless. Well, I want to know WHY those razors feel so different and WHAT they're made of.

So here's what I'm proposing: I'd like to collect a bunch of junked razors from famous brands and have them analyzed. We could get Rockwell hardness readings on them, and maybe have a spectro-analysis (or whatever the technical term is) to determine the alloy content.

Having a breakdown of famous razors would be a nice starting point for guys like me. Makers could try to recreate some of the shaving experiences of yesteryear, or at least know how their blades stack up against the good vintage brands.

To pull this off, we need three things:
- A collection of blades that we can destroy
- Someone with access to a Rockwell machine
- Someone with access to a machine that will analyze the alloys in the metals

I'd be willing to organize things and prepare samples by cutting, grinding, etc.

Can anyone else help out in the other areas?

I should mention that this isn't a new idea; Robert Williams and Bill Ellis did something similar, but the results of that project have been lost. If Robert still has them on file, maybe he could post them again...

Josh

Bruno · 05-12-2008, 04:00 PM

I think I might have something.
I have at least 1 that I would sacrifice for the greater good, if you finda someone with the right equipment.
I think Tim Zowada has a rockwell tester. Maybe you can drop him a line?

Traveller · 05-12-2008, 07:00 PM

Josh,Robert Williams did it some years ago,at least I seem to remember him telling me about it.I sent a bunch of Sheffield razors out to be nitrided some years ago,and also got analysis done on a cast steel one,and a forged steel razor.I dont know where the paper work is,but will have some one look,and if I did it through my business they will be able to find it for me,and i will send it to you.Best regards Gary

JoshEarl · 05-12-2008, 07:41 PM

Gary,

That would be great. The more data we can gather, the better.

I'm going to try to get Robert to drop by as well...

Josh

PapaBull · 05-12-2008, 08:43 PM

I can tell you what I found out from a metallurgist testing three different razors.

Here were the razors and results. All three were low alloy straight steels.

Wade and Butcher hollow ground 6/8. Hardness 58/59. It had some retained austenite and improved 1 point after cryo treating. The steel was a straight steel with no significant alloys.

Case razor. Being one of the better American razors, I thought it would make for a good test. This had a good heat treat and temper tested 60/61 hrc and had a fine grain. It had very little retained austenite.

Puma. This was the best of the three coming in at 61/62 hrc with a very fine grain.

For all intents and purposes, they were pretty much the same steel with a carbon content of around 1 percent. The differences seemed to be in the quality of the heat treatment, which is why I find some W&B razors to be outstanding and some just so-so and I belive this is because of the variation in heat treatment. the primary difference in feel aside from that between the razors seem may be more attributed to the grind and hardness than anything else. This shouldn't be surprising because what it takes to make an excellent blade is a very good grind at the right bevel for the heat treatment and hardness - and, of course, the quality of the heat treatment.

I've come to the opinion that high carbon steel is made best when heat treated one blade at a time with careful attention to detail, temperature, quench time... i.e. individually processing the steel to get as thorough a conversion to martensite as possible with the least possible stress to the blade.

Jimbo · 05-12-2008, 08:59 PM

I don't have any junk razors, but if you continue with the testing and get the kind of data that needs analysis, I'll happily donate my statistical expertise to help tease out trends etc between the different brands/makers/areas etc.

James.

mparker762 · 05-13-2008, 01:05 AM

I had my Chronik tested at a local lab that specializes in material failure analysis, and it came out at 60 rockwell. While chatting with the owner of the lab he mentioned that he had his grandfathers W&B and Wostenholm razors and he had tested them years ago out of curiosity and they were 57 and 59. This lab was capable of doing the alloy composition analysis, but I didn't bother with the Chronik since it leaves a scar on the steel and the only thing special about this razor is its rarity.

Russel Baldridge · 05-13-2008, 06:13 AM

Robert, who did the cryo treat on that WB?

I've heard of guys doing it themselves with dry ice and acetone, can you speculate on the validity of such a method?

OLD_SCHOOL · 05-13-2008, 06:57 AM

Won't something like this possibly drive up razor prices in todays market?

I kinda see that people who lurk on forums like this might use the analysis to slap an extra 0 on their price or what have you.

I'm not saying this is a bad idea, just thinking out loud again.

I have a shot Gotta beyond repair if you want that for your project.

Bruno · 05-13-2008, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

Won't something like this possibly drive up razor prices in todays market?

I kinda see that people who lurk on forums like this might use the analysis to slap an extra 0 on their price or what have you.

I'm not saying this is a bad idea, just thinking out loud again.

I have a shot Gotta beyond repair if you want that for your project.

Who knows

but on the upside: sharing information freely can never be bad for the community

JoshEarl · 05-13-2008, 05:32 PM

For those of us who sell razors, higher prices aren't necessarily a bad thing...

I'm thinking of starting an OPEC-like organization that will allow us to exert total control over the razor market.

Anywho... Tim Zowada has agreed to do the Rockwell testing, and I'm working on getting a local college involved in doing chemical analysis. I'll probably post a call for samples in the near future...

Josh

JoshEarl · 05-13-2008, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PapaBull

I can tell you what I found out from a metallurgist testing three different razors.

Here were the razors and results. All three were low alloy straight steels.

Wade and Butcher hollow ground 6/8. Hardness 58/59. It had some retained austenite and improved 1 point after cryo treating. The steel was a straight steel with no significant alloys.

Case razor. Being one of the better American razors, I thought it would make for a good test. This had a good heat treat and temper tested 60/61 hrc and had a fine grain. It had very little retained austenite.

Puma. This was the best of the three coming in at 61/62 hrc with a very fine grain.

For all intents and purposes, they were pretty much the same steel with a carbon content of around 1 percent. The differences seemed to be in the quality of the heat treatment, which is why I find some W&B razors to be outstanding and some just so-so and I belive this is because of the variation in heat treatment. the primary difference in feel aside from that between the razors seem may be more attributed to the grind and hardness than anything else. This shouldn't be surprising because what it takes to make an excellent blade is a very good grind at the right bevel for the heat treatment and hardness - and, of course, the quality of the heat treatment.

I've come to the opinion that high carbon steel is made best when heat treated one blade at a time with careful attention to detail, temperature, quench time... i.e. individually processing the steel to get as thorough a conversion to martensite as possible with the least possible stress to the blade.

Robert,

So the razors you had analyzed were basically similar to 1095?

I have broken a couple of vintage blades to look at the grain, and I have to agree about the heat treatments being spotty. One of the blades, an old Sheffield, had grain that looked like coarse sand.

I'm not sure I agree about the grind on the Sheffields being the main reason they feel different, though. While a lot of W&Bs were heavier grinds, I've also tried some full hollows, and they have that same velvety feel.

The differences are pretty striking, as a lot of guys have noticed. I have no idea what could account for it, and that's actually part of the reason I'm interested in this project.

Josh

JoshEarl · 05-13-2008, 11:21 PM

I contacted a friend at a local college, and here's what he had to say:

"We have a project this summer that would be perfect for the situation you have. We're working to set up an inductively-coupled plasma atomic emission spectrometer which is a great tool for multi-element analysis of alloys. The only drawback is that the sample must be dissolved in acid and destroyed. It might be a great test of the new instrument once it is set up."

So we're in business....

Josh

heavydutysg135 · 05-13-2008, 11:43 PM

Josh, this is a great idea and I am really looking forward to hearing the results of the analysis. If it is needed I have an Electric Cutlery razor from New York that I would be willing to send you to test and destroy in the process. I think that I remember being told that Joe Chandler thought very highly of the steel and shave quality that these razors provide so it might be worth testing. There are a few old dubl ducks in my collection I have not got around to restoring that I might be willing to give up for experimental purposes, but hopefully someone else will volunteer to give one up first

heavydutysg135 · 05-13-2008, 11:50 PM

I just took a look at my “work pile” and found a few more that you might be interested in. A Heljestrand faux frameback from Eskilstuna Sweden and a Klaas from Eskilstuna Sweden might be good candidates that I would be willing to donate to the cause. I also have a Claus from Germany that I could send but it has a fair amount of corrosion that would have to be removed. Will the corrosion contaminate the tests?

mastermute · 05-14-2008, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by heavydutysg135

I just took a look at my “work pile” and found a few more that you might be interested in. A Heljestrand faux frameback from Eskilstuna Sweden and a Klaas from Eskilstuna Sweden might be good candidates that I would be willing to donate to the cause. I also have a Claus from Germany that I could send but it has a fair amount of corrosion that would have to be removed. Will the corrosion contaminate the tests?

I'm already looking forward to seeing how the "Swedes" are!
If coorosion is an issue, I guess they could sand them down, brutally, before dissolving in acid... I mean, they won't need a mirror finish

Bruno · 05-14-2008, 07:11 AM

superduper. they are building one of those whachamacallits, one of those thingamajiggies

Now I have images of beaker and bunsen with straights

Do we simply send out our sacrificial lambs to your address?

bevansmw · 05-14-2008, 10:00 AM

Well I have a a genco or two I'd be willing to sacrifice

Just need to know where to send it.

JimmyH-AD · 05-14-2008, 02:04 PM

I have wondered about the temper and content of various razors myself. In the book Hatcher's Notebook a longtime ordinance officer General Julian Hatcher compiled notes on his observations made over the years. Among the topics was the heat treating of '03 Springfields. Some of them below serial # 800,000 were prone to failure and had in some cases caused serious injury to the shooter.

It was found that the workers responsible for the heat treatment relied on the color of the metal as it was being heated and cooled to determine when the correct temper had been reached. After further analysis it was found that depending on whether it was a sunny or an overcast day the temperatures of the metal being heat treated could vary up to 300 degrees using the eyeball method. Afterwards the Armory began using pyrometers and the problem was solved.

I bring this up because I am assuming that the razorsmiths in the 1800s probably tempered by eye so the results will probably vary whereas once pyrometers were introduced tempering would have been more consistent.

Bruno · 05-14-2008, 02:53 PM

Traditional Japanese forging is still done like that.
When tamahagane is smelted, the tatara master is awake for 3 days, tending the fire, looking at the color and listening to the sound of the fire raging inside.

And I seem to remember Mike Blue saying that he can control the smelting process with an incredible accuracy.

When swords are heat treated, the same applies: the smith heats the blade and judges the color to determine when the blade is ready for quenching.
Of course this takes a lifetime of experience, but it is possible.