first try at razor from scratch, wrinkles

spazola · 06-10-2008, 01:34 AM

Here is my first attempt at a razor from scratch. It was going well until the very end when it developed wrinkles on the edge. I am guessing that there must be some internal stresses at work. The blade is ground down to .010 for approximately 3/16 from the edge. Maybe I ground it too thin? Maybe I did something funky with the heat treatment?

I learned a lot during the process and am ready to try again, this time I will buy some steel instead of using an old file.

Charlie

tjiscooler · 06-10-2008, 01:51 AM

Great job! I think it looks good. Did you make a new forge?

hoglahoo · 06-10-2008, 02:42 AM

ooooooo like it

Doc · 06-10-2008, 03:35 AM

For your first attempt that looks great!!!!!!! keep it up man!!!!

Chris L · 06-10-2008, 04:00 AM

That's a beauty, wrinkles or not. Great work on the jimps. Keep at it, man. Very cool.

Chris L

Mike Blue · 06-10-2008, 04:24 AM

Old files aren't good for files anymore. They can't cost as much as new ones or new steel.

Two things come out of this photo. There were internal stresses in the steel from the heat treatment and that's whats causing the blade to "potato chip." That's easy enough to fix with a few changes in how you are preparing the blade for heat treatment.

Second: It's a very good start.

Chris L · 06-10-2008, 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Blue

Old files aren't good for files anymore. They can't cost as much as new ones or new steel.

Two things come out of this photo. There were internal stresses in the steel from the heat treatment and that's whats causing the blade to "potato chip." That's easy enough to fix with a few changes in how you are preparing the blade for heat treatment.

Second: It's a very good start.

Wow, coming from Mike Blue, if that was MY first razor, I'd be on top of the world. Seriously.

Chris L

spazola · 06-10-2008, 04:42 AM

Mike,

Here are the steps I took. What should I change to keep this from happening again?

Heated till nonmagnetic and put in can of lime to anneal

I shaped with hacksaw and files and grinder. The blade never got hot enough to change color during this process.

I heated to nonmagnetic again let set another minute just to be sure than edge quenched in heated vegetable oil (130). I tested with a single cut mill file, it did not bite into the blade edge anywhere along the length.

I then tempered in my home oven at 400 for an hour let cool to room temp. Then did it again.

Then belt sanded/ground blade to shape.

I am thinking that maybe I should have quenched the whole blade instead of just quenching about 3/8 from the edge.

Thanks to everybody for the encouragement.

Charlie

mastermute · 06-10-2008, 09:32 AM

Way to go! I'm looking forward to your next attempt!
Currently I'm stuck in town so it'll be until next weekend before I can do "some grinding" again

bg42 · 06-10-2008, 11:13 AM

Exellent effort ,if thats your first go ,you are a natural .The wavey edge will probably be due to the edge being too thin
when you heat treated it , I leave about 1mm at least ,then finish grind even then there are a few waves that have to be ground out
keep practicing, just quietly I stuffed up my last one so dont tell any one
Kind regards Peter

Mike Blue · 06-10-2008, 01:41 PM

Charlie, my first blades were a good deal more butt ugly. The current generation of makers coming up seems to be starting out a lot better off than the cohort that did with me twenty years ago.

I think you have the basics of the process down pretty well. Since there wasn't a lot of forging involved this little waviness may just be a fluke, or stresses left over from the steel mill before it became a file. Sadly, there are some files out there that are not very good steel, but case-hardened mild steels. If this thing threw good bunches of feathery white sparks the whole time grinding on it, you're safe. It wouldn't skate another file after hardening if that was true anyway.

But at some point I should write down the basics of grain refinement, aka thermal cycling. Some folks call it normalizing too. But that would be most necessary if you were forging or if your grinding style was to get the blade to change into a lot of colors when grinding. If your bulk stock removal was a file, probably not, but, the grain stress could have been left over from the steel mill too.

Bruno · 06-11-2008, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Blue

Charlie, my first blades were a good deal more butt ugly. The current generation of makers coming up seems to be starting out a lot better off than the cohort that did with me twenty years ago.

If I appear far sighted, it is because I am standing on the shoulders of giants...
Or something to that effect.

These days, with the internet, there is a ton of resources available that simply didn't exist when you started.
We have the advantage that we can learn from you and other topical experts.
And we can pass on our knowledge, each adding his or her own specialty to the mix of knowledge.

It's like when I started straight shaving. My technique was awful for years, and I had to learn everything the hard (= pain) way. And even after all those years, I still needed SRP to finally get the hang of it.
These days most new shavers who want to learn find a shaving site, and learn in 2 months what took me years to learn.

Chady · 06-11-2008, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruno

... there is a ton of resources available that simply didn't exist when you started.
....

Very true indeed. Also it must have been hard to make the transition away from bronze to harder metals like iron or steel later on.

- Sorry couldn't resist making a joke.

Anyhoo, although I know squat about metal work, the blade, looks good stylistically. Barring the waves on the edge naturally as you mentioned.

randydance062449 · 06-11-2008, 10:24 AM

Mike Blue mentioned "normalizing". It is something for you to consider and also the thickness of edge before heat treating. That and quench the whole blade, not just the edge.

Your first razor is far better than my first 5!

JoshEarl · 06-11-2008, 12:57 PM

Did the edge curl during the heat-treatment or after you started grinding again? Either way, I think the problem is it got too thin. I that find if the grind isn't uniform in thickness prior to quenching, the thinner parts tend to buckle a bit. I haven't seen waves like that develop during finish grinding yet, but right at the edge you'll sometimes get some metal that's paper thin and starts to ripple. Maybe you've almost ground through the blade near the center?

Regardless, that's a fantastic first effort. Heck, it would be a good 10th effort.

Keep at it!
Josh

Mike Blue · 06-11-2008, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chady

Very true indeed. Also it must have been hard to make the transition away from bronze to harder metals like iron or steel later on.

- Sorry couldn't resist making a joke.

I remember using clam shells off the beach. That natural ceramic is a b**** to hone...

Bronze was the latest and greatest because it was easier to sharpen...

spazola · 06-12-2008, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjiscooler

Great job! I think it looks good. Did you make a new forge?

I used the same forge, it worked better this time. I am not sure if it was heating less mass, the lining was finally dry, or using a brick to block the opening instead of an old sad iron. I think using the brick made the biggest improvement.

Charlie

spazola · 06-12-2008, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoshEarl

Did the edge curl during the heat-treatment or after you started grinding again? Either way, I think the problem is it got too thin. I that find if the grind isn't uniform in thickness prior to quenching, the thinner parts tend to buckle a bit. I haven't seen waves like that develop during finish grinding yet, but right at the edge you'll sometimes get some metal that's paper thin and starts to ripple. Maybe you've almost ground through the blade near the center?

Regardless, that's a fantastic first effort. Heck, it would be a good 10th effort.

Keep at it!
Josh

The edge curled at the very end of the grinding. I was using a 600 belt wet, to clean up and bada bing I have a pringle. I said blue words. I measured all over with the micrometer. The grind is pretty consistent, that is unless I have a valley that is smaller the anvil on the micrometer.

The grind looked pretty consistent before heat treating.

Thanks for all your guys help and encouragement. I have learned a lot from this forum.

Charlie

JoshEarl · 06-12-2008, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spazola

I used the same forge, it worked better this time. I am not sure if it was heating less mass, the lining was finally dry, or using a brick to block the opening instead of an old sad iron. I think using the brick made the biggest improvement.

Charlie

All of the above would have helped significantly. It's amazing how much more heat it takes to work with a bigger piece of metal. I started a big Bowie knife once using 2x1/4" steel, and it was brutal. It took me close to two hours to hammer a point onto the bar. I wasn't letting it get hot enough. I should have just popped it in the forge and walked away for three or four minutes for each heat, but I was pulling it out after less than a minute and whaling on it.

Wore myself out pretty good.

Josh

JoshEarl · 06-12-2008, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spazola

The edge curled at the very end of the grinding. I was using a 600 belt wet, to clean up and bada bing I have a pringle. I said blue words. I measured all over with the micrometer. The grind is pretty consistent, that is unless I have a valley that is smaller the anvil on the micrometer.

The grind looked pretty consistent before heat treating.

Thanks for all your guys help and encouragement. I have learned a lot from this forum.

Charlie

Hmmm. I guess it was internal stresses like the other guys said. I haven't seen anything quite like that happen. How thick was the blade when you measured it?

Josh