[Detach]

first of all to the mods...i THINK this belongs here...feel free to move it if you feel it belongs somewhere else

I see damascus razors (kinda know the process of making them w/folding layers of metal) but they raise a question in my mind: The damascus razors always look very dark, is there a way to make razor quality steel black or dark in color? I know there's petinas and what not but i'm talking actual dark steel.

Thanks in advance!

[Russel Baldridge]

Originally Posted by Detach

first of all to the mods...i THINK this belongs here...feel free to move it if you feel it belongs somewhere else

I see damascus razors (kinda know the process of making them w/folding layers of metal) but they raise a question in my mind: The damascus razors always look very dark, is there a way to make razor quality steel black or dark in color? I know there's petinas and what not but i'm talking actual dark steel.

Thanks in advance!

The dark color is from the etching process that makes one of the steels darker than the other because of alloying elements or carbon percentage that make the etching occur at different rates.

Ferric Chloride is a common etchant, as is vinegar.

Josh Earl does this to some of his blades as does Charlie (spazola)

Link: Frameback #3

Another Link: Josh Earl 6/8 spanish point

Other than the etching process (which is a patina), no, there is no way to make clean, unetched, steel that is black. If you were to sand on any damascus blade it would be shiny underneath the patina. That is why Damascus razors have shiny bevels just like any other razor.

[Detach]

oh schucks...ok thank yoU!

[PonderingTurtle]

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

Other than the etching process (which is a patina), no, there is no way to make clean, unetched, steel that is black. If you were to sand on any damascus blade it would be shiny underneath the patina. That is why Damascus razors have shiny bevels just like any other razor.

Which is why many people tape damascus razors when honing.

[Russel Baldridge]

Do you have a specific need for black steel that rules out using a patina?

There's also this method: Caswell Inc. - Black Oxide Kit

I mean, as long as you don't need to sand the surface very often, a patina accomplishes the same end result of appearance.

[kevint]

I don't think there is a way to create black steel through and through. every black coating has shiny underneath.

Patinas. It depends on what you want. Slick modern, or old traditional. I think the old traditional style black oxide would look good on the spine. that takes a lot of time.

It is rust; stabilized. It's not for the faint of heart or those who like surgical mirror polishes.

[Chris L]

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

Do you have a specific need for black steel that rules out using a patina?

There's also this method: Caswell Inc. - Black Oxide Kit

I mean, as long as you don't need to sand the surface very often, a patina accomplishes the same end result of appearance.

That Caswell kit is pretty cool, Russel. I wonder if you can selectively blacken steel vs. having to dip the whole thing. It says water based solution. It would be great if you could mask the hollows of razors like some of the Dubl Ducks and Case razors that have blued/blackened tangs, shoulders and spines but shiny steel hollows?

Chris L

[Russel Baldridge]

Many knifemakers (when making damascus blades) use fingernail polish (enamel paint) in the recessed portion of their makers mark before etching to bring out the layered pattern, then they remove the nail polish to reveal a clean makers mark and etched blade.

So if you could paint the hollows with enamel etc. before blackening, then dip the blackened blade in acetone or MEK or whatever it is that takes off the paint that you used, it would achieve the results your looking for.

But I haven't used the Caswell kit, it was suggested to me in a different thread. For etching I just use Radioshack PCB etchant, it might work for this as well.

If you want, I'll give it a shot on an old junker and post pics.

[kevint]

Awww you guys stole the idea for my first resto. I think it has the perfect features for it: a hand forged red imp with hammer marked tang.

Russ correct me if I'm wrong but the ferric only goes gray, not black?

Of course I did find the link/recipe/instructions for the quick and easy home pharmacy blackened steel patina

[Russel Baldridge]

On hardened 1095 it is a dark gray but not jet black. It would give a color similar to the dark layers in a damascus blade.

Don't worry about it, man, if you want first crack at it, by all means go ahead.

Also, I don't really know if it would be rust preventative in the same way that hot blue is, but it would have a unique look to it.

[kevint]

Oh no that's not what I meant.

I've etched with ferric, hot vinegar, lemon juice, mustard. I like the gel of naval jelly best. Another tip i learned is to add ivory dish soap to break the surface tension to avoid splotches. the DD I was whining about looked like it needed some artificial aging so i etched the whole blade with jelly.

As soon as I saw the hammering on the tang I knew what I wanted to do with the imp... I thought it was an original idea,lol since then I've seen one or two blued like Chris mentioned which is almost the same thing. Mine will be black

[Mike Blue]

Some pattern welded blades are treated with gun bluing after etching and polishing to darken the deeper etched lines. This also converts the oxides left there into a more durable form that rusts less. That is the point of pre-rusting a barrel with a bluing process.

Old timey browning is the same process, but one critical part is left out. If you want a dark blue/black, boil the rusted and treated part and the oxide will turn very dark. Boiling water is not hot enough to ruin any heat treatment and has been used as a sterilizing technique anyway. If you still want some of the shiny lines, merely rub lightly with a very fine paper or scotchbrite to bring out the highlights again.

[Smiles]

From the book Home Machinist's Handbook:

"Black Finish for Steel Parts: The following method can be used to provide a jet black, rust-inhibiting finish on any steel part. This finish looks especially nice on nuts, bolts, and screws used in small mechanical assemblies. To obtain the finish, simply coat the part with motor oil and place it in an oven or a hot plate. Heat it to approximately 350ºF. The oil will bake into the part in about 10 minutes, leaving a hard, durable black finish."

This works great.

Matt

[Mike Blue]

Originally Posted by Smiles

From the book Home Machinist's Handbook: "Black Finish for Steel Parts: The following method can be used to provide a jet black, rust-inhibiting finish on any steel part. This finish looks especially nice on nuts, bolts, and screws used in small mechanical assemblies. To obtain the finish, simply coat the part with motor oil and place it in an oven or a hot plate. Heat it to approximately 350ºF. The oil will bake into the part in about 10 minutes, leaving a hard, durable black finish."

And a good method. Needs to be done with care so as to not overshoot the temperature and ruin the hardness of the steel. That's nearing the top of the range for tempering temperatures. Baking the oil onto the surface means you won't be able to follow any color changes to avoid overshooting.

A variation on this theme is to heat the metal and then rub beeswax onto the surface. It'll melt and smoke a bit. More of an organic petroleum...smells good too.

I've done both kinds of finishing on black irons that are going to be exposed to weather. it lasts about two years and can then be repeated. I've never done this to a knife or edged tool. Hmm, something for the experiment list.

[Detach]

=-O Smiles! That sounds so easy! I assume you've tried it? I think that when i decide to rescale a razor (plastic scales would melt) i will do this...perhaps to my wapi which i just realized is all metal scales and all. I am intrigued. do you have more information smiles?

edit: perhaps i will let someone else try it first haha...

[Smiles]

Originally Posted by Detach

=-O Smiles! That sounds so easy! I assume you've tried it?

Not yet. I ran across it at the same time a fellow I know needed to blacken car suspension bolts and nuts and so on. He did it and it worked great. The nice part was that, unlike some other finishes or patinas, there was no appreciable coating, so the fasteners' threads worked fine.

I plan to try it sometime when I rescale, too.

I wouldn't worry about a 350 heat doing much negatively to temper.

[Mike Blue]

Originally Posted by Smiles

Not yet. I ran across it at the same time a fellow I know needed to blacken car suspension bolts and nuts and so on. ...

I wouldn't worry about a 350 heat doing much negatively to temper.

For nuts and bolts probably not. But unless we know the exact steel in a razor, it might be cause for just a little worry. I do my tempering in a Paragon HT furnace that has about a 5 degree cycle around a set point or a low temperature salt bath that might cycle 25 degrees below a set point without any overshoot. Someone doing a 350 temper in a home oven could have as much as a 50 degree cycle, maybe more, and then even the placement in the oven can have effects. The margin of error is something to attend to.

Otherwise take less chance and use the chemicals.

[JoshEarl]

I'll bet that this process would work without going to 350 degrees. Maybe start at a safer 250 degrees or so. Otherwise this is a great idea, and I suspect I'll be giving it a try sometime...

Josh

[PonderingTurtle]

Originally Posted by JoshEarl

I'll bet that this process would work without going to 350 degrees. Maybe start at a safer 250 degrees or so. Otherwise this is a great idea, and I suspect I'll be giving it a try sometime...

Josh

I don't know, it looks like the same thing one does to season cast iron cookware, but with motor oil instead of vegitable oil.

I am not sure you would get the same chemistry in the oil at the lower temperatures.