Manganese Steel?

davisbonanza · 07-24-2008, 09:57 PM

Hello all,
Does anyone have any information as to whether or not manganese steel razors from Wester & Butz, Solingen are any good?

Thanks

thebigspendur · 07-24-2008, 11:00 PM

I would guess its a typical solingen made razor which means its a quality razor.

davisbonanza · 07-25-2008, 01:38 AM

Thanks big spendur,
Well, I just bought this it on the bay.
ANTIQUE STRAIGHT RAZOR WESTER BUTZ MANGANESE BONE KNIFE - eBay (item 330253863509 end time Jul-24-08 18:20:00 PDT)

For that price it won't be a great loss if the razor turns out to be crap. I'll let you guys know if it finds a place in rotation as a good shaver. I will still welcome anyones experience with manganese steel.

Cheers

nun2sharp · 07-25-2008, 02:11 AM

They are good razors and you got yours at a good price.

Brother Jeeter · 07-25-2008, 03:33 AM

I have a Wester Bros. Manganese Steel and it's a fine razor! I often search for "Wester Bros. Manganese Steel" on the Bay. I missed this one. You got yourself a good one! The hone wear isn't bad and the blade looks pretty good.
Congratulations. I paid more for mine and it has more hone wear. BUT, I like the Bone Scales it wears.

Regards,

Jeeter

Brother Jeeter · 07-25-2008, 05:20 AM

Ye Gawds! I just looked again and yours has bone scales too. It's a keeper!
You done good!

Jeeter

shuredgefan · 07-25-2008, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Jeeter

Ye Gawds! I just looked again and yours has bone scales too. It's a keeper!

I've got two Mang Westers and even thought I've sworn off buying anymore razors

(part of the RAD 12-step program), I would have been tempted if I'd seen it.

BTW, both of mine have blued tangs, anybody know if that was standard or some kind of option?

Bart · 07-25-2008, 10:10 PM

I'm no alloy expert (let's hope one chimes in on this thread), but I read somewhere (Alloying of Steels) that manganese steel is really a different type of steel.
I have a Bartmann razor that has "manganese steel" stamped in the tang. It's a very hard steel, taking more work to hone than most other razors, and keeps a good edge for a long time. In fact, I've honed it only once, so far and I estimate it has about 20 shaves on the counter now without any sign of edge deterioration. (Of course the hardening and tempering process defines a lot of the final hardness, so a Manganese steel razor from another brand might tell a different story) Based on the condition of most of those Manganese steel Bartmanns I saw on Ebay so far, I'd say it has some stainless qualities as well, but I'm not sure about that.

Best regards,
Bart.

blueprinciple · 07-25-2008, 11:08 PM

Wester Bros. were sole importers for Wester & Butz, Solingen. The term Manganese steel is used on several razors. Nearly 90% of all of the manganese produced each year is used in the production of steel. Manganese is added to molten steel to remove oxygen and sulphur and is alloyed with steel to make it easier to form and work with and to increase steel's strength and resistance to impact. I would say therefore that the term 'Manganese Steel' is just a marketing ploy. I have seen similar with thing like 'magnetic steel', 'austenitic steel' and 'chrome steel'. That's not to say it's not good steel - it is, just a bit of lily-gilding going on!

thebigspendur · 07-25-2008, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart

I'm no alloy expert (let's hope one chimes in on this thread), but I read somewhere (Alloying of Steels) that manganese steel is really a different type of steel.
I have a Bartmann razor that has "manganese steel" stamped in the tang. It's a very hard steel, taking more work to hone than most other razors, and keeps a good edge for a long time. In fact, I've honed it only once, so far and I estimate it has about 20 shaves on the counter now without any sign of edge deterioration. (Of course the hardening and tempering process defines a lot of the final hardness, so a Manganese steel razor from another brand might tell a different story) Based on the condition of most of those Manganese steel Bartmanns I saw on Ebay so far, I'd say it has some stainless qualities as well, but I'm not sure about that.

Best regards,
Bart.

Sorry to be the rainman here but manganese steel is just an advertising gimmick. In the old days before consumer protection people could sell anything and call products anything they wanted so people came up with creative titles so make their stuff seem special. You see razors termed manganese, carbon, magnetic, carbo-magnetic, tungsten steel, moly steel, vanadium steel etc etc and on and on and they are all right because carbon steel contains all these alloys and more. So basically carbon steel is carbon steel. Most of these Solingen makers bought their blanks from a handful of suppliers so its all the same stuff.

Brother Jeeter · 07-26-2008, 03:02 PM

I worked in the Steel Industry for thirty-five years. Steel does in fact contain Carbon, Manganese, Vanadium and so on. It is the PERCENTAGE of these alloying elements that determines exactly what type of steel that you have.
Another factor that has a great deal to do with the final product, is heat treating. Hardening, drawing, annealing and so forth.
Iron and Carbon are the basic ingreients of Steel. The additives determine the outcome. Just as Flour is the basic ingredient of Bread. It also figures prominently in Cake, Gravy and Paste. It's what the Flour is mixed with, and how it is treated after that, that makes it what it is.
Almost all steel is Magnetic...there are some grades of Stainless that aren't. Different grades of Carbon Steel are applicable to different uses. The alloying agents determine the specific use. Chrome-Vanadium Steel is a good Blade Steel. For Many years the W.R. Case Company (Makers of Case XX knives) used it a LOT.
52100 is Ball Bearing Steel and the Marble's Company used to make knives from it, they still might, I'm not sure. That stuff is as hard as Chinese Arithmetic. The 100 (last three digits of the designation) refers to 100 points of Carbon in the makeup of the Steel. That's ONE PERCENT Carbon. That's a lot!
But I digress.

Jeeter

thebigspendur · 07-26-2008, 10:10 PM

I don't know about the U.S made razors but keep in mind that though there were probably hundreds of people turning out razors in Solingen alone very few made the razors from scratch. There were only a very few places that made the blanks and they did not sell blanks by grades. Possibly some of the few companies selling razors made from scratch had their own proprietary steel used for razors and the only one I know for sure who did this was Hen and Rooster though probably there were a few others. Possibly some were able to get custom batches but I really doubt it.

As far as stainless goes the early stuff is all the same. Its only very recently with all the custom guys that people are using different grades of stainless. TI just started using Carbon Steel with a higher carbon content and people are all agog over that. Maybe if they ever do that razor analysis experiment we will find out.

Brother Jeeter · 07-27-2008, 05:26 AM

My previous post was a very generalized thumbnail sketch of Steel and the making of it. However there are only so many ways of making Steel, such as Open Hearth, Basic Oxygen and Electric Furnace. They are different ways to product the same thing, Steel! There are only so many additives that will positively impact the alloy. 'Get you what you want' so to speak.
I am relatively certain that Steel production is pretty standard across the industrialized world. What I am getting at is that the businesses that sold the blanks that Razor manufacturers used, DIDN'T use Mild Steel, Drawing Quality Steel, or some "Mystery Grade" of Steel! It WAS definitely some grade of HIGH Carbon Steel. It HAD to be, in order to be hardened by heat treating. What the other additives were, is anybody's guess, without an analysis. Probably Manganese, maybe Vanadium, possibly Chromium, or Molybdenum. I don't know. Each of these metals will produce beneficial results in the Steel. I am not a Metallurgist, so I am not an expert in 'Steel recipes' but I don't believe the Steel producers were shooting in the dark. They knew what they were doing and they could make the product the customer wanted. If not, their replacement could.