Is ball steel really from old anchor chain?

zenshaver · 08-24-2008, 01:20 PM

I recently have been looking into the various steels especially with concerns to the ball steel an iwasaki is supposed to be made of. I came across this subject thread Japanese Woodworking Forums :: View topic - Kamaji and Watetsu and now am wondering if ball steel could actually be old anchor chains from old ships. This sounds like an interesting subject. Any comments?

kevint · 08-24-2008, 04:56 PM

Hi Zenshaver.

Those materials are old wrought iron, soft and non-hardening, thus it remains soft after yaki-ire, with other reasons to use it as well.
Iwaski does not use such soft materials for his jigane.

I did not find the munemasa english page working, the babelfish translation of Åá¾¢¡¦´äºê½ÅµÁºî¡¡¡Ê1¡Ë´äºêÆüËÜÄæÅáÊÌÂÇ¡Ê£²Ãú³Ý¡Ë ÏÂ¼°¥Ê¥¤¥ÕÀìÌçÅ¹¡Ú½¡Àµ¿ÏÊª¥Ê¥¤¥ÕÆÃÁª¡Û is not much help unfortunately.

However, as many online translators read 'tamahagane" as ball-steel, that could be the source of confusion.
I'm not going so far as to say that is incorrect. In reading other threads on these razors I recall seeing 3 potentials mentioned. Swedish, Tamahagane, Ball. I never heard of ball steel before and thought perhaps it was material used for ball bearings- which have to be pretty tough

I believe it has been settled for some time that Swedish steel is the material of choice for regular production. The exact type , steel # was one question to Iwaski-san that never got asked- perhaps I can make a pest of myself to learn more in the near future.

The price increase from 50 to 60mm might simply be a result of their in shop practices. It wouldn't take much time in almost any high end shop to add a couple hundred dollars to the cost of an item when it upsets production of a standard size. But that is only a guess. One thing we can be sure of: the 60mm is not tamahagane

zenshaver · 08-24-2008, 07:58 PM

It is interesting though.I think the swedish steel can probably keep a great edge as it is too. A tomhagane would be nice if I had $2000 or whatever it would cost.I have read about the ball steel too and would like to know more about it if anyone else knows anything.How much better it would be etc...

kevint · 08-24-2008, 10:15 PM

You're right Zen; it is interesting. I am really keen for home made steel. You might enjoy looking this over:
:: Tatara Project by Jesus Hernandez ::

another from mifuqwai: Video of Tamahagane Keradashi - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

Mike Blue · 08-25-2008, 12:47 AM

As near as I can develop sources, the ball steel referred to may actually be ball bearings, or balls from a ball milling machine used in an old iron works. The bearings could be any decent high quality steel. Sometimes legends develop about them being 52100 which is a very good knife steel, but not all ball bearings were of that steel. The ball mills use a high carbon steel that was work hardening so the balls would last a good long while before breaking down. They are readily available. I've made knives from both kinds and they are good edge steels.

The Japanese smiths were known to have imported Swedish steels to use for edge materials in tools. Tamahagane, worked into oroshigane, is traditional material for swords. Although smiths would use most anything to give it a test, it's doubtful that any foreign steels made it into art swords for public consumption. There is too much tradition in the way.

The tool makers did not have the same restrictions and I would suspect a razor to be regarded more as a tool than a revered art object. I have a number of Japanese tools that have wrought iron shanks and welded steel bits for the cutting edge. One very old fellow insisted that anchor chain was the best wrought iron to be used in this way. He gave toolmaking seminars in Iowa and the NE US for a few years. The last time I saw him was at the ABANA conference in LaCrosse.

Making steel is fun. Hard work, but fun. I like Jesus' design as well as the Japanese smith's model. They are designed to be reused.

thebigspendur · 08-25-2008, 12:52 AM

My understanding is that the Iwasaki's made from Ball Steel are made from very hard ball bearing steel. Of course ball bearing can be made from a huge assortment of alloys some with very high tungsten content so unless you know for sure ball steel doesn't really mean much.

zenshaver · 08-25-2008, 12:08 PM

Very interesting. Of course, I would want the best steel possible. As long as my wallet could handle it.

The tatara project makes me want to become an apprentice blacksmith. I wonder if iwasaki will take some new apprentices.

OLD_SCHOOL · 08-25-2008, 01:40 PM

There are two Kanji that make up the word Tamahagane, they are 玉　and 鋼 the first kanji there is Tama, which in English has two meanings, ball and jewel. The second Kanji is Hagane, which in English means steel.
A few of my contacts that work with many different tools, say that ball steel is what foreigners call Tamahagane, and a few others have absolutely no idea coz they have never heard of it.

Could my contacts be mistaken? It is possible, not likely, but possible. I have to rely on them, because my knowledge of steels is.... Well I have no knowledge basically.

This is just my 0.02 worth.

EDIT: So the question about ball steel coming from anchor chains, I have to say, someone is pulling your leg. Maybe we need to use that one wish to get our answers.

Here is a link with some info on Tamahagane.

zenshaver · 08-25-2008, 02:16 PM

Very interesting link thanks. I got the info from a post at japanesewoodworker forum.( Ref 1st post). As to the truth in it who knows. Tamahagane does look interesting.

Russel Baldridge · 08-25-2008, 02:37 PM

That first post at the Japanese woodworking forum makes a distinction between steel and iron, but it's not as clear as it could be.

Iron, or wrought iron as is usually the case, is mostly pure elemental iron (Fe) with some impurities and slag. It is very soft, malleable, and doesn't harden like steel does.

Steel is iron with a small percentage of carbon added to it. When the carbon levels get up to about .4% or so, the steel can be hardened by heat treatment, with increaseing levels of hardness up to about .7% carbon. Most "high carbon steels" are between .7% and 1.2% carbon.

And FWIW, cast iron is iron with about 2.1% or more carbon added to it. It is very brittle and isn't suitable for cutting tools.

Anchor chains are sought out for use as a backing material by some smiths because wrought iron easier to forge then steel, cheaper to use, and somewhat conventional. The main body of the cutting utensil is made of soft iron, while the cutting edge is a piece of high carbon steel that has been forge welded down the length of the blade.

The reference to iron as tamahagane stems from the process of making the steel in which certain parts of the tamahagane are infused with enough carbon to make excelent cutting tools while some other parts are almost entirely carbon free. The guys in that thread are discussing different types of irons; wrought iron from anchor chains, modern production wrought iron, and iron from the tamahagane making process, not steel in any useful sense of the word.

Russel Baldridge · 08-25-2008, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zenshaver

Very interesting. Of course, I would want the best steel possible. As long as my wallet could handle it.

The tatara project makes me want to become an apprentice blacksmith. I wonder if iwasaki will take some new apprentices.

Many steels are entirely indistinguishable from one another in practical usage (and especially in an application like a razor where the steel is not being pushed to it's performance limit like a sword would be). At some point you are paying for a status symbol, not a superior cutting tool.

kevint · 08-25-2008, 03:22 PM

IIrc Leon Kapp The Craft of the Japanese Sword translates tama as jewel, and So at japan-tool does as well. I think the best translation of tamahagane is tamahagane. This leaves no doubt what one is speaking of.

I asked Iida-san to check with his wholeseller; neither had heard of anything refered to as ball steel or ball bearing stell being used in anything. He shaves with a western style razor made by Mizuochi-san. When checking to see if any were still available, too bad he didn't ask directly, but he didn't. And sadly they don't make any more western straights.

---
There are some good online articles discussing the use of nanbantetsu (foreign steel) in traditional swords. It was at the time well received. The utilization of modern steel mixed into the alotment of tamahagane is certainly frowned upon hich is not to say that it doesn't happen.

--
Then there are some tool smiths that have their own special blends made up for them, or have reserves made in their father's time, or use some of the old antique steels imported 50-100 years ago.

I have one tamahagane tool, a kiridashi, that I use now almost exclusively for leather work as I keep on chipping the edge. hopefully it will eventually be sharpened back enough and quit that annoyance. I also have a swedish steel plane made by a smith well known for working in that material and it is really good stuff.

OLD_SCHOOL · 08-25-2008, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevint

IIrc Leon Kapp The Craft of the Japanese Sword translates tama as jewel, and So at japan-tool does as well. I think the best translation of tamahagane is tamahagane. This leaves no doubt what one is speaking of.

Translating it as jewel steel might have been the intended/original purpose. You are right though, it should be left as Tamahagane, but foreigners just have to have everything Japanese, translated into English, and some get very agitated if a word can't be translated.

zenshaver · 08-25-2008, 04:05 PM

I suppose it is easy to get caught up in the mystery of it all and get something that is more flashy than practical. Especially, if it is from the mysterious orient.I guess I am a sucker for this stuff.I have a kiradashi I have been using for chipping away at the bad spots on my windowframe in my house. I don't think it is tamhagane though. it is welded steel though.I know it is not its intended purpose but it works good.

JimmyHAD · 08-25-2008, 04:10 PM

I remember reading that legendary knifemaker William Scagel used ball bearing steel for some of his blades and googled same. The only thing useful I came up with was this quote from knifemaker Ed Fowler's catalog,"The Ed Fowler Steel My steel of choice is hand forged 52100 steel, the steel of ball bearings. Based upon extensive comparison shop testing and field evaluation I believe that when carefully forged and heat treated, this is the most versatile and dependable steel available to the knife industry.

Mike Blue · 08-25-2008, 05:35 PM

I can live with Old School's kanji study. That is also a likely explanation for the source of the ball reference. Occasionally during the smelting process, one finds round balls of steel (usually fairly small, less than 1.0 cm) that turned liquid but did not attach to the forming bloom. These round balls tend to be very good quality steel material from this type of process.

Tool and razor makers will have some access to the tamahagane made for swords. I don't think as regularly as the sword smiths. It's a well regulated material.

PonderingTurtle · 08-25-2008, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

That first post at the Japanese woodworking forum makes a distinction between steel and iron, but it's not as clear as it could be.

Iron, or wrought iron as is usually the case, is mostly pure elemental iron (Fe) with some impurities and slag. It is very soft, malleable, and doesn't harden like steel does.

ALso true wrought iron is pretty hard to come by as it has not been seriously manufactured in a long time. But the fibers of slag that are in it produce some useful properties.

Not at all apropraite for a razor, but it can reduce corrosion and when it breaks it breaks something like bread dough and not the sharp cracks you get in even the lowest carbon steels.

PonderingTurtle · 08-25-2008, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

Many steels are entirely indistinguishable from one another in practical usage (and especially in an application like a razor where the steel is not being pushed to it's performance limit like a sword would be). At some point you are paying for a status symbol, not a superior cutting tool.

And honnestly I think that this level is pretty low. I have wondered exactly when in price the increase in the price of razors had little to do with real edge quality, and much more about aesthetics.

Not that the hand made razors aren't incredibly attractive, but I suspect that in terms of real edge quality you could get there for relatively little money. But there is not enough of a market to really mass produce high quality straight razors.

kevint · 08-25-2008, 09:08 PM

here's another good tale of the tatara

Tale of the Tatara : The Kera-oshi Method

"The best quality parts selected from the resulting kera are called tama-hagane(“jewel steel”). The best quality parts selected from the resulting kera are called tama-hagane(“jewel steel”). "

zenshaver · 08-26-2008, 11:41 AM

Great article. Someone must really be dedicated to lose his sight just to take care of the tatara. No wonder tamahagane is so precious. It takes an awful lot of effort and sacrifice to make it.WOW.