[dcarmell]

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Well I don't know about myths and what someone supposedly said to someone through an interpreter.

Just to clarify, it was Joel at B&B who wrote this and he wrote the following in one post:
"That is very much incorrect. I don't know who started that rumor, as it is quite prevalent, however the Japanese style razors shave equally effective on EITHER side of the blade - period."

And in a following post, he wrote:
"I spoke to the man who actually made them (when custom ordering the one in ZDP steel) and through a translator, he made it vividly clear, you shave with both sides. I own 4 Japanese straights - 2 new and 2 ancient and I use ALL 4 on both sides with equally fantastic results. The different shapes/blade profile on both sides are to create a fine, yet incredibly robust edge.

It is not chisel ground - in that BOTH side are sharpened with an angle, the wedge side is not just straight down (a la chisel)."

Both posts can be found in the Tosuke review thread. I guess we can assume one of four things:
1. Joel made inaccurate assertions.
2. The translator interpreted the razor maker incorrectly.
3. The razor maker doesn't know what he is talking about.
4. You are incorrect in your assertion.

Dan

[gugi]

Originally Posted by dcarmell

1. Joel made inaccurate assertions.
2. The translator interpreted the razor maker incorrectly.
3. The razor maker doesn't know what he is talking about.
4. You are incorrect in your assertion.

Is that a poll? I know what I'd pick!

Sorry guys, sometimes I'm in a goofy mood...

[Russel Baldridge]

Originally Posted by dcarmell

Both posts can be found in the Tosuke review thread. I guess we can assume one of four things:
1. Joel made inaccurate assertions.
2. The translator interpreted the razor maker incorrectly.
3. The razor maker doesn't know what he is talking about.
4. You are incorrect in your assertion.

Dan

But to be fair, many people believed the myth in question (myself included, for a long time), and it had to have come from somewhere so it's not like Bigspendur is making it up. We've all just been misinformed.

That said, I don't buy the idea about prolonged edge retention either. The grind has nothing to do with what happens to the cutting edge, it has to do with the bevel angle, the metal in question, and the thermal treatments it has undergone.

Sounds like a marketing ploy or an uninformed theory at best. In fact it has no more logic behind it than the one sided usage theory... and the mysteries continue...

[dcarmell]

Very true, Russell, and I oughtn't have been so pointed--that was unmannerly and I apologize.

Dan

[kevint]

My razor was set upon with great intent to do something, but i don't know what. It has been seriously mis-sharpened. I have honed on it just a little. It works as tbs describes... for the time being. and if it turns impossible i'd be the first to say

the kanna anology. when you first learn to plane you are taught to go with the grain of the wood using a pull stroke. After some time the notion occurs to you that the next cut needs a push stroke. You never adopt it as a primary stroke, but when needs be it works better. Finally after much practice and observation tuning the dai and developing high level sharpening skill you learn the kanna can produce equal results planing either with or against the grain

[Russel Baldridge]

I didn't intend that to be a chastising post, I just like to keep all things as objective as possible until a definitive answer is presented for this mysterious (and oh so appealing) style of razor.

So far we have two theories for the asymmetrical grind, both of which seem to have their flaws: many people report being able to use, and enjoy, the Japanese razor on either side; nobody seems to confirm that the edge is any more "robust" than any other straight.

And now, if I may, I'd like to present another option.

The Japanese are supremely aware of aesthetics and value asymmetry with slight imperfections more so than the alternatives. It's part of a philosophy they call "Wabi-Sabi", link: Wabi-sabi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. So it could just be the way they incorporated their aesthetic values into the design of the razor over however many years.

That said, they have many forms of cutlery (yanagiba, takohiki, etc.) that have an asymetrical bevel for the specific purpose of making the tool right handed or left handed. With a steep angle on one side, and a flat back, the user is able to slice meat with their dominant hand and make it detach from the blade as easily as possible (because the transition from the cutting bevel to the blade body is at such a steep angle, the food loses it's suction to the knife).

So, considering the options, it may well be an attempt to incorporate all of the previous theories because if they all do what they are supposed to, then the tool is head and shoulders above rest of the pack; and if they don't, you still have wonderful aesthetics and a great tool.

Kudos to those craftsmen, whatever their intent.

[thebigspendur]

I think when people are looking for solutions to a problem they fail to recognize the simplest and most logical ones in favor of complicated hypothesis and then complicate things even more in an attempt to justify their assumptions.

The fact that Joel or I or others feel the way we do about these razors has nothing to do with hearsay information or videos or theories. Its based only on our use of them over time and simple observation and in my case when I sold them a few years ago and what I learned from the venders in Japan. To us there is no mystery here. Maybe to some of you there is and I hope you will further investigate to determine the ultimate truth.

Take this as you will.

Enjoy your razors guys and I truly mean that.

[kevint]

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I think when people are looking for solutions to a problem they fail to recognize the simplest and most logical ones in favor of complicated hypothesis and then complicate things even more in an attempt to justify their assumptions.

The fact that Joel or I or others feel the way we do about these razors has nothing to do with hearsay information or videos or theories. Its based only on our use of them over time and simple observation and in my case when I sold them a few years ago and what I learned from the venders in Japan. To us there is no mystery here. Maybe to some of you there is and I hope you will further investigate to determine the ultimate truth.

Take this as you will.

Enjoy your razors guys and I truly mean that.

I take it with good intentions you convey tbs. with your statements on the subject I have never seen any further explanation, only something to the effect that if you are to master this style razor it must be used this way. As I said my razor responds the same way you describe.

My problem is- I don't want it to be that way so I struggle for explanations trying to think for myself rather than blindly accepting all i read.

I am investigating to determine the veracity of Joel's statement. As well as other facts of terminology and design. I guess you could say i want to believe Joel because that suits my lazy arse ways.

As you are well informed on their methods could you explain the design for us truth seekers. a humble and sincere request
_ Kevin Toomey

[Kees]

Ultimately the most important thing is we enjoy our razors our own way. Sometimes there is no right or wrong sometimes more than one ways are right nor wrong.

I have put the question to So a while ago. He is on holiday now. My experience is he investigates things, he has contacts in Japan, he has been taught honing the Japanes way from his father, he met with Iwasake-san and knows his successor (see my post on B&B) he deals in hones so I hope he'll be able to shed some light.

[thebigspendur]

Think of it this way. We all use western razors and I don't think I have ever seen someone question why they are the way they are. So why were they designed to be used with two hands and not one? Why fold? Is the western way a better way? if so why? Is the shave superior? Its all a matter of your perspective gentlemen. Black is white and white is black. How would someone from Japan who never saw a western razor think about this? What conclusions would they reach?

[thebigspendur]

And another thought, even if Iwasaki himself testifies the razors were made to be used two sided what does that mean? If you wanted to learn about how to use a straight or its history would you call Tim Zowada or Maestro Livi or Bill Ellis? They might be great razor makers but what does that have to do with razor use or history? Maybe they use electrics to shave themselves.

maybe some day we'll see a newbe post from iwasaki wanting instruction from us on how to use a straight. Wouldn't that be a laugh?

Like I said white is black and black is white.

Contact the Japan national Museum and ask the curator of edged implements if you want the straight skinny. Maybe.

[kevint]

what is the point with all the rhetorical questions?

We have questions. where's the problem with that miracle worker?

Look at it this way: How long has this forum been operational? How many questions are asked regarding techniques of straight shaving everyday. What is the average time between cycles of the same questions asked again and again?

The razor is one of the most simple tools- a single blade. one of the first things ever invented. why on earth should we even need such a place to discuss in such infinite detail

edit to add: fwiw my first source confirms that only the ura should touch the face. (concave stamped side)

[Russel Baldridge]

Who was your first source, I didn't see it on a quick scan through the thread.

I think one of the problems that we are running into here is a difference in argument, i.e. whether it was intended to be used a certain way or whether it was found to provide the best shave by using it a certain way.

It may have been intended to be used one handed, but it is undeniable that many competent users report being able to use both sides equally.

Fwiw, my personal opinion is that it's appearance quite obviously suggests the one sided use, but the fact that the razors bevel, which is the only part actually cutting the hair, is a simple triangle would mean that an equally good shave should be attainable from either side. I have enjoyed using them one handed, but do not look down on using both if need be.

To me these are appealing, admirable tools of extremely high quality, produced by skilled smiths, and that is all that matters.

I think we are all in aggreement on that, so cheers to great shaves and supporting those superb craftsmen!

[kevint]

I'll assume you're asking me without any quote.

First I do agree; these are cool little tools. I have a passion for hand forged tools, and am pleased to be able to support

My first reading as I recall was posts by thebigspender detailing one handed use.( I don'y know I've seen every discussion on kamisori) I thought ; cool: good thing I'm practicing- though at present all I can say is that I try it out on occasion. Since then I've watched a few barber shaves online and it still seems like similar contortions would be needed to keep only the ura on the face shaving someone else or yourself. The whys of difficulty is not the issue I'm curious about- The traditional Japanese "trades" I have researched seldom do anything because it is the easiest, quickest way. Everything is done for a reason, if it so happens to make it damn difficult to accomplish-

I'm just a noob with japanophile tendencies. The things I do know about I am willing to share freely, just as the info was given to me. I'd just like to know everything possible. It'd be cool to discuss the ins/outs reasons for western razor engineering as well

I get my tools from 4 sources: Hap, Sou, Hida, and Tomohito Iida. Tomohito has been my go-to guy for some time. He advised that the ura is the side used on the face. I have hardly shaved once with my razor(it's an old one, not Iwasaki or tosuke). I just haven't had time to sort it out amongst other honing issues i'm having

[thebigspendur]

I agree, why are we even discussing this? To me its intuitive how to use the razor and needs no discussion. I didn't use the terms myth. I'm only responding to that. It just seems to me that when guys pay a lot of money to buy a japanese traditional Straight they want the whole experience otherwise why buy it? To try and turn it into a quasi western razor makes no sense to me.

Its like people who go "camping" to get the camping experience and take a motor home with all the conveniences of home. Nothing wrong with it but its not camping.

[Kees]

Even using the razor on both sides is an entirely different experience. The steel is very different.

As So explained to me it is the Japanese forging process that creates smaller crystals. With the smaller crystals you get a sharper cutting edge.

Caompare visiting Amsterdam: some tourists think the whole experience includes visiting a coffee shop for a spliff, others think you even need to visit a prostitute in the red light district. Most are happy with a visit of the old town centre.

[Russel Baldridge]

Originally Posted by Kees

Even using the razor on both sides is an entirely different experience. The steel is very different.

As So explained to me it is the Japanese forging process that creates smaller crystals. With the smaller crystals you get a sharper cutting edge.

Japanese steel is also, generally, more pure than the western varieties.

As for smaller crystals, the metallurgical processes that create smaller crystals in the steel's microstructure can be used/manipulated with any steel. There are limits as to how fine the grains can get, though. If you make them too small, the steel becomes very difficult to heat treat correctly.

Surely, though, if any razorsmith is at the cutting edge of metallurgical knowledge and practice, it is Iwasaki san.

[kevint]

As much as I love those old geezers they, or is it only their merchants, still spread around a little bull... like reading japanwoodworker catalog where it says special forging technique produces denser steel.

It's a strain for me to argue the scientific side, being 1/2 purist and all. It's usually true: fully rigged up with all the technological goodies and the know how to use them a smith will get much closer to perfection more often than anyone eyeballing gas, or even more risky, charcoal.

But after 60 or 70 years of doing the same thing 6 days a week 12 hours a day and you have the passion to excel, you're expected to be pretty good at guessing what is going to happen next.


My metallurgical know how is really low, but essentially what they are doing is a kind of hillbilly normalizing.
They do all the major work as quick as they can at very high heat and then do their refining with multiple heats at much lower temps which serves the same purpose as normalizing which gets you to small grain.

or something like that

[Russel Baldridge]

Originally Posted by kevint

They do all the major work as quick as they can at very high heat and then do their refining with multiple heats at much lower temps which serves the same purpose as normalizing which gets you to small grain.

or something like that

Yep, pretty much.

The alloying elements play a small role in grain size, but mostly it's grain refinement via thermal cycling that makes the biggest difference in the resulting edge quality.

But that's hard to explain, in precise detail, to the average person who only wants a good razor and doesn't necessarily need to know why it's better than other varieties. So it's not surprising that a bit of hype gets built up around these razors.

What's funny is that many Japanese bladesmiths seek out anchor chains from old English ships because the cast iron links are supposed to be purer than is commonly available nowadays. Other's take great pride in advertising that they work with Swedish steel because in Japan it is seen as somehow superior to their own varieties.

The grass is always greener on the other side.

[kevint]

Hi Russel,

Here is a fairly good discussion of the differences, whys of various soft backing used on Japanese tools: As far as I know there is only one factory in England that still produces the old style wrought iron, so the easiest way to get any is recycling

Japanese Woodworking Forums :: View topic - Kamaji and Watetsu