How far should courtesy go?

Utopian · 08-15-2008, 02:01 AM

I have a bit of a dilemma with a posting currently in the Classified section. In the old days of the BST, I know how this could have been handled but now I'm no longer sure so here I am asking...

I have just encountered a posting in the new Classified section that I consider to be deceptive or at least incorrect. This may be due to the inexperience of a new member or, worst case scenario, it may be due to someone trying to pull a fast one. In either case, I will definitely PM the seller right after posting this message but I don't think that goes far enough. That is because if the seller disagrees with, or disregards, my suggestion to him, then some other new or inexperienced member may believe the description in the listing and get screwed.

I think the most detrimental difference between the BST and the Classified sections is the drastic reduction in comments associated with listings in the Classified sections. The result of this is that there is less peer review of the items put up for sale. That means that questionable items are not as likely to be questioned and that commendable items are less like to be recommended. Both lead to less help/guidance for newer members.

Finally my question...

In the new Classified section, is it okay to post a comment to basically challenge the veracity of a listing or to ask for the seller to explain his experience to in order to justify his claims? Of course I mean for this to be done in a relatively tactful and courteous manner, to the best of my abilities.

JimmyHAD · 08-15-2008, 02:08 AM

Really good observation. I am a relative newcomer around here but I think you should have every right in the world to comment on an item pro or con and I bet the mods will agree,

Utopian · 08-15-2008, 02:27 AM

I guess I'm a little less prone to make such comments in the Classified section because it's more like you're trying to shoot down someone's chance to make a buck. In the BST, it seemed to have more of a sense of community and people responded with comments just like in the rest of the forum. I'm clearly not the only one who is feeling a bit tenuous about it because there is a markedly reduced number of comments in the classifieds in comparison to BST.

sicboater · 08-15-2008, 03:41 AM

Welcome the chance to increase my level of service to this community. If ANYONE EVER has a need to PM me and point out a mistake I am making, I will accept it with as much grace as I can muster. That goes for the classifieds and the rest of the site too!

v/r

-Rob

Utopian · 08-15-2008, 04:44 AM

I did follow up and PM'ed the seller who triggered my questions. The problem is that I had multiple objections to his ad and I did raise them to him, but that's not public. It's not my intent to shame anyone, and as I already said, I tried to be tactful, but that PM does nothing to inform anyone else. I'm not claiming to have any degree of brilliance that simply must be bestowed upon the minions.

I'm saying that the rest of this forum is full of give and take dialog. The BST had that and Classified does not seem to have it. The BST was a part of the forum and the Classified is not part of the forum according to the tabs at the top of the the webpage.

So just what is the proper level of decorum for comments in the Classified section? Could the Mods please clarify this?

Doc · 08-15-2008, 04:54 AM

As far as I am concerned the same ruls that held for the BST hold for the classifieds. Gentlemanly behavior is expected, Money should not be discussed as in "you are charging to much" etc. If you have a serious issue please drop a pm to me or one of the other mods before trying to call someone out or calling someone a crook

thebigspendur · 08-16-2008, 02:15 AM

I think its pretty much a given that you can ask for clarifications concerning the item however comments reflecting on the seller and his/her item and or price should not be broached. if you have an issue of that type contact the mod and take it up with him but I'm pretty sure what the answer will be in a far majority of cases.

English · 08-16-2008, 08:05 PM

I have similar concerns about the integrity of some recent descriptions.

For example, can a blade that looks to have pitting along the razors edge be described as excellent.

I think that a question should be asked in the advert section not as a pm.

No reply to polite questions speaks volumes to a would be purchaser.

This is a high quality forum with a membership that has a high level of integrity. That integrity has been built up over a long period.

It also has a great classifieds Section with a high reputation for quality at a fair price.

OK you can not question price but you sure can question quality and I hope every member will do so if they have a concern.

In this way, anyone who joins just to sell product and make money will learn quickly that we have standards and don't suffer fools gladly.

To be honest, you need to earn your reputation as a seller. This is not E Bay but it could slide that way quickly if we don't ask the questions and monitor sellers activities.

My 2p's worth.

Utopian · 08-16-2008, 10:56 PM

English, you pretty much summed up the basis for my concern. That's why I raised the issue in conjunction with the question of appropriate etiquette for the Classified section relative to the former BST.

Doc has told me that it is under discussion.

Maybe we should make an effort to treat the classified section just like the old BST.

StvnSHtt7 · 08-17-2008, 01:31 PM

I have been looking at the Classified section frequently and i appreciate its simplicity to find exactly what you may be looking for, however, it is easy for a seller to forget to click one of the options for the descriptions when posting items. Furthermore, i have seen very few comments on listings, i think maybe people aren't commenting simply because they have objections to the new system. Fundamentally, i think this system can be great but everyone has to take a step forward in accepting it rather than just boycotting it. Too often i have read people saying "I never go there because i like the old system better" or something along those lines. For me at least, i just look for sellers i have seen on the forum for awhile that i know have a good reputation for being fair, when i make purchases.

Don · 08-17-2008, 04:40 PM

Folks I am going to jump in here. The reason the BST was changed was for a lot of the reasons you state above it was a source of problems. And if you look at other forums there BST are full of the same thing. It has resulted i
n arguements threats and to the point of people almost if not getting banned.
We are a site for information and friendship.

OLD_SCHOOL · 08-17-2008, 05:02 PM

It is perhaps unfortunate, but all we can pretty much do is try to reason with members in PM. I know what its like to want to comment and warn others of items FS that really belong on ebay due to their misrepresentation, its hard to hold back sometimes, coz you just want to be helpful and avoid seeing people get ripped off.

If I were to offer a newbie some advice before they purchase their first razor, it would be to spend some time reading the forums and gathering info first, then they should know what to look for. Also I would recommend the info on ebay, (I don't have the link ATM) which was written by Bill Ellis IIRC about purchasing from the bay. That info is both very helpful and useful.

All that said though, if there is something you really object to and don't think you can overlook, then shoot a PM to one of the mods, and they will take it from there.

Don · 08-17-2008, 05:25 PM

Folks I tam going to jump in here. The reason the BST was changed was for a lot of the reasons you state above it was a source of problems. And if you look at other forums their BST are full of the same thing. It has resulted in arguements threats and to the point of people almost if not getting banned.
We are a site for information and friendship. The classfied was set up to keep the crap out of the site but still give a place for members to sell and buy things. A sale is between the buyer and the seller. Commen sense must prevail. If some buys something in the classidieds or anywhere on the internet without checking in on it. Well that was not the case. There is a wealth of knowledge in the forum to reasearch any purchase. If a buyer chooses not to that is there choice. That also goes for sellers they can list their product as they feel fit. Value is in the eyes of the buyer. It is none of our places to say they overpaid or got ripped off. If they are happy that is all that matters. If they feel they did not get what they expected that is between them and the seller. We are all grown adults. I have used the classieds and love them. By the way someone buy the rest of my stuff so I can list more lol. There were also people that bought through the BST and felt we were responsible. It is simple you are butying something on the internet do your research and were a great place for that. The classfieds are easy quick and a great place to sell and buy. All that said we do moderate the classifieds tomake sure people are following the guidlines. They way someone describes their product, rates it or prices it is up to them. That said I do comended those looking out for others. But a purchase or sale is a private transaction and the classifieds keep it that way.
I am typing on my Q and driving so sorry for any typos or any lack of clarity plaese feel free to ask me any questions on my post. And those that now me well I know stop driving and postining :-)

Utopian · 08-17-2008, 05:47 PM

Well, for your sake as well as ours, please drive more carefully than you post!

I do appreciate and acknowledge your comments. I wonder if perhaps in the future if someone has something to say, pro or con, it might be more appropriate to ask about it or comment on it in the Auction Talk section of the forum, rather than as a comment in the Classified section? This would be a means for newbies to get advice about a particular item without any resulting discussion being attached to the ad itself. Given the way that the Auction section is currently used primarily for ebay items, it could easily expand as a resource to cover the Classified section.

OLD_SCHOOL · 08-17-2008, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Utopian

Well, for your sake as well as ours, please drive more carefully than you post!

I do appreciate and acknowledge your comments. I wonder if perhaps in the future if someone has something to say, pro or con, it might be more appropriate to ask about it or comment on it in the Auction Talk section of the forum, rather than as a comment in the Classified section? This would be a means for newbies to get advice about a particular item without any resulting discussion being attached to the ad itself. Given the way that the Auction section is currently used primarily for ebay items, it could easily expand as a resource to cover the Classified section.

I think everyone assumes, that the seller on ebay is not a member of SRP, hence the discussions and talk about price etc. At least we might hope they are not a member.

Utopian · 08-17-2008, 10:58 PM

Actually, I have seen several Auction talk discussions that have ended up with the ebay seller joining in and identifying himself as a member.

backpackerx · 08-21-2008, 03:51 AM

The only problem I see with not commenting on condition or pricing (within reason) is for newbies. I agree people need to research themselves but there isn't a lot of info out there other than forums like this and the general advice to all newbies looking for a straight is "buy one from the members here on the classifieds, you can't go wrong" While I know that to be the case 95% of the time it's hard for newbies to know the 5% to avoid. Rather than challenge condition or pricing I think it's better to ask a simple question for your own sake and for others interested such as "Is that a small chip I see in the blade" or "Are those heavy blemishes spotting or corrision or pitting" just my 2 cents. I agree that outright pricing disagreements don't belong there but simple informative questions seem perfectly ok and beneficial to all.

Utopian · 08-21-2008, 04:27 AM

I absolutely agree. I fear that absent the self-policing that was so prevalent in the old BST, the number of people selling questionable quality stuff will rise. I completely understand SRP's decision to bifurcate the classifieds from the rest of the fourm. I just think that the slack should be taken up by allowing or even encouraging comments or questions about stuff in the classifieds in the same manner that the auction talk section has been used to discuss razors for sale on ebay and other places

kelbro · 08-21-2008, 04:40 AM

I don't like to see people get ripped off either but personally, I lean towards Don's 'mind your own business' policy. My deal is to buy from those with good reps, good pix, and they answer all the questions that I ask. If any of those are negative, I don't buy. Simple.

It drives me nuts to see (on other forums) self-appointed expert buyer advocates, who have no intention of buying an item, commenting on something that is really none of their business.

FiReSTaRT · 08-21-2008, 03:45 PM

I haven't spent much time on the SRP lately, but I've noticed a huge increase in active membership. There are quite a few names I don't recognize. Across the board, this creates a condition of relative anonymity, where an unscrupulous seller could take advantage of an uninformed buyer.
However, we have always been a community of gentlemen and behaved so (with a few exceptions, but I'm talking in general). That is why, in theory, both systems should work.
The reason I would have preferred the old BST format is because it's open to discussion. Prospective buyers could ask questions in public and have them answered for everyone to see. While it might be the buyer's responsibility to get educated in general, the BST allowed for the prospective buyer to get educated about the specific item.
Another reason why the BST forum was superior was that the prospective buyer could do a search on all similar items sold in the past and get a better idea of the value and how various factors affect it.