[Dave Keith]

Another view: In response to thebigspendur's opinion on a newbie obtaining a clapped out razor and investing in pricey hones and strops in order to master the honing process as a preliminary to learning shaving technique, I must opine that such a scenario strikes me as a form of aversion therapy.

The steep learning curve of honing, which is portrayed here and most places as an arcane art requiring zen-like concentration and hours of practice, would send me back, well, not to a M3, but at least back to the relative ease of DE usage. I have sent my only straight razor to Lynn for preparation and personally think that getting intrigued by straight shaving and experiencing successful shaving will provide the impetus to acquire the requisite skills for honing later.

This opinion may be worth exactly what you have paid for it: nothing

[thebigspendur]

Ya see in this age of instant gratification everyone wants it now. But with some things in life thats not the way it works or maybe not the best way. I realize what I'm saying here isn't exactly standard fare around here but learning how to use a straight involves numerous skill sets. They do not come fast and for most not easy either. You could be like the guy who buys a mechanical contraption and when it needs maintainance just trashes it and buys a new one instead of learning how to care for it. yea just keep buying another straight every dozen shaves or so and by the time you have a dozen or so hopefully you will have mastered honing.

In a way buying a straight and using it without knowing how to hone is like...buying a car and not having a license (or being able to drive). You can just leave it in the garage and go out and sit in it every day and wash and wax it. Sure, you can hire someone to drive you around until you get your license and you can pay someone to hone your razors until you learn to do it yourself. Of course people get that pretty straight and just want to pick it up and use it right away not stare at it for weeks while they master some dumb skill like honing.

Just think about it guys, just think about it. Almost all the posts from newbees involve problems with getting the razor shave ready or questions wanting to know how to tell if its really sharp enough. If that was removed from the equation of straight shaving then shaving technique could be concentrated on 100%.

Well I've said my piece and now I'm going to smoke my pipe!

[filmecyan]

Originally Posted by EdinLA44

Hi filmecyan

Since you have a brand new hanging strop, it shouldn't need anything for awhile. Most good strops are ready to go out of the box and don't need a pumice stone or any treatment with dressing.

From reading your post, it sounds like you might be a bit confused on terms. There is strop dressing that is applied to a strop and is used to help keep the leather itself in good condition. Then there is the paste, which is a mild abrasive applied to a different strop than the one you use on a daily basis to prepare the razor for shaving. This second strop with the abrasive paste is used only periodically to freshen up a razor's edge. For the pasted strop, many folks get a 4-sided paddle strop so you can apply different pastes with varying degrees of abrasiveness. Once you put an abrasive paste on a strop, it gets embedded into the leather and then can only be used for that purpose. That's why you have one strop for daily stropping, and another one (or more) for the pastes.

So for daily shaving, you would strop the razor first with the linen side and then with the leather side. After a couple of weeks or so, when you notice the razor starting to pull when you shave, then that's the time you would get the pasted strop and freshen the edge. I usually get about 10-12 shaves before I have to use the pasted strop, but my beard is on the lighter side, so your experience may differ. I hope that answers your questions.

Ed

I have an Arkansas razor hone that I bought before I found this site. It's nothing fancy, but would it work to freshen the razors edge once a month rather than buy a new four sided strop and paste? I'd rather not spend the extra money unless the razor hone won't do the trick.

[EdinLA44]

I'm not an expert on Arkansas stones but I believe they're pretty abrasive. From what I've read, they are around 1200 grit or less, so that is not good for touching up a razor. You need something around an 8000 or 12000 grit for that purpose. You might be able to find a used barber's hone on eBay for a good price.

If you want a budget set up, get in touch with Tony Miller. He might have something (like factory seconds, etc) that's cheaper than getting a Norton. The most inexpensive set up I can think of is over on ClassicShaving.com. You could get a tube of their Dovo Red paste for $5 and then put it on the back side of an old belt that you don't want to use anymore. That's probably the most economical way to keep an edge on a razor. Also, make sure you're signed up for the newbie razor and strop giveaway. You might win one or both.

http://shop.thewellshavedgentleman.com/splashPage.hg

http://www.classicshaving.com/catalo...944/196078.htm

[filmecyan]

Originally Posted by EdinLA44

I'm not an expert on Arkansas stones but I believe they're pretty abrasive. From what I've read, they are around 1200 grit or less, so that is not good for touching up a razor. You need something around an 8000 or 12000 grit for that purpose. You might be able to find a used barber's hone on eBay for a good price.

I see, so if I bought a 4000/8000 Norton stone, as I think I will need to anyone to hone the old razors I have, would I need to have an abrasive strop or would the 8000 stone do the trick?

[AFDavis11]

Good question, unfortunately there is no trick. The general concensus is that the 8k will work by itself. As you learn though an 8k alone is quite a handicap. I prefer adding .5 paste AND a high grit hone (like 10-12K), but ultimately the more you learn the more you can only use an 8K and be perfectly satisfied. Its almost as if you need to buy lots of gear, learn the technique and then start selling stuff off. A Norton 4/8K would be a great start to see how things go for you. Given patience and honing skill the 8K should be plenty. At this point I've learned enough I don't even need the Norton, but a year ago I couldn't shave without it. If I could only have one hone, it would be a Norton 4/8K.

[jake]

As a newbie myself, I have one word to throw in the mix: SHAVETTE! $20 for a In addition to my Lynn-sharpened razor, it provides a consistent benchmark for what a sharp razor should feel like. It was great to start out with after screwing up my first razor (Dovo 5/8) with bad honing form (and kept me in business while I waited for Lynn to sharpen the razor).

There are many things to work out for a newbie and I found that by splitting the shave/hone learning curves into two sections, I was able to patiently work on my shaving and later work patiently on my honing. I've still got a ways to go on honing, but after getting my razor back from Lynn and comparing it to my second razor (Timor Blue 5/8) which I've been honing myself (paddle strop with 1.0 and 0.5 paste), I've found them both to shave equally well.

jake

[ChuntaroStyle]

That is a good idea to get you through the wait. I send my razor off this week to be honed by Lynn. Can anybody estimate about how long it takes to turn around a razor?

[clarman]

Learn to shave and strop or start honing right away! this debate has gone on forever and the members of this forum are divided on this subject...remember if everyone liked chocolate there wouldnt be vanilla...In my opinion I believe a newbie needs to focus on learning how to shave and strop with a razor properly honed by a member of this forum...the razor with proper care stroping before and after shaving should maintain its edge for a minimum of 2-3 months ...if you dont believe me ask lynn! many newbies start honing right away because they think their razors are sharp...usually they are but poor stroping tech may dull their razors but restroping the razor correctly without paste will generally restore the edge...but what happens is the newbie gets out the hone and without knowledge or practice screws up the edge and now the razor really needs to be rehoned but without experience the newbie has virtually no chance of accomplishing this ...so he keeps trying and trying and keeps trying to shave with it which is like trying to shave with a pocket knife...his face gets sore he gets frustrated...starts worrying about cutting hairs cuting his thumbnail still gets ****ty shaves and finally gives up...I think after mastering shaving and stroping there is time to focus on learning to hone...lets be honest with the proper equipment a norton 4000/8000 and a belgium coticule and a little help from some of the members a str8 can learn to hone in a short period of time...obvioulsy the more practice you get the better your tech gets...we all know its not rocket scientist stuff...but focusing on each skill seperatly will help the newbie accomplish his goals

[randydance062449]

Strop paste ( not abrasive honing pastes) should be used only when the strop appears to be drying out. And that should be very infrequently. Once a year? maybe (depends on your climate). When you do decide to use it then use it sparingly.
2-3 pea sized drops rubbed in thourghly and allowed to set for 24 hours. Most new strops don't need anything.


Hope this helps,

Originally Posted by filmecyan

At the advice of members, I've had classic shaving send my new DOVO to Lynn for sharpening, and I want ot be able to keep the best adge possible on it. I've ready through the how to's on classic shaving and looked through the help files here. I have a new Illinois razor strop. Could anyone give some info or shed light on where to find the right info of whether or not I should use paste on the hanging strop, and if so, how often. Also, for how long do I need to break the strop in with pumice?

[RichZ]

Originally Posted by clarman

Learn to shave and strop or start honing right away! this debate has gone on forever and the members of this forum are divided on this subject...remember if everyone liked chocolate there wouldnt be vanilla...In my opinion I believe a newbie needs to focus on learning how to shave and strop with a razor properly honed by a member of this forum...the razor with proper care stroping before and after shaving should maintain its edge for a minimum of 2-3 months ...if you dont believe me ask lynn! many newbies start honing right away because they think their razors are sharp...usually they are but poor stroping tech may dull their razors but restroping the razor correctly without paste will generally restore the edge...but what happens is the newbie gets out the hone and without knowledge or practice screws up the edge and now the razor really needs to be rehoned but without experience the newbie has virtually no chance of accomplishing this ...so he keeps trying and trying and keeps trying to shave with it which is like trying to shave with a pocket knife...his face gets sore he gets frustrated...starts worrying about cutting hairs cuting his thumbnail still gets ****ty shaves and finally gives up...I think after mastering shaving and stroping there is time to focus on learning to hone...lets be honest with the proper equipment a norton 4000/8000 and a belgium coticule and a little help from some of the members a str8 can learn to hone in a short period of time...obvioulsy the more practice you get the better your tech gets...we all know its not rocket scientist stuff...but focusing on each skill seperatly will help the newbie accomplish his goals

That really doers make sence. I know when I first started it was alot to learn at one time.

[tombuesing]

I just got a Friodur 7/8 from John Crowley, all honed up and ready fro stropping. I'll try it for the first time this saturday (while the wife is out of town).

In discussions I had with John C. and Robert Williams, they recommended starting with a 6/8 or 7/8 since the added weight would make for an easier shave. I'd lke to compare notes with you or someone, who has started with a 5/8.

Tom

[clarman]

John is very knowledgeable...I have many of his razors...while his razors arrive shave ready and sharp make sure you strop them before and after each shave...

[RichZ]

Originally Posted by tombuesing

I just got a Friodur 7/8 from John Crowley, all honed up and ready fro stropping. I'll try it for the first time this saturday (while the wife is out of town).

In discussions I had with John C. and Robert Williams, they recommended starting with a 6/8 or 7/8 since the added weight would make for an easier shave. I'd lke to compare notes with you or someone, who has started with a 5/8.

Tom

Tom,

My first razor was a 5/8. I now use anything from a 3/8 to a 7/8. Alot for me depends on when I shaved last. If I shaved the day before a smaller razor is ok but if I skip a day I like the bigger razors 6/8 or 7/8. They give a little more umph on the longer hairs. Yesterday I used a 7/8 W&B wedge and got such a good shave I didn't need to shave this morning. I could do a little trimming now though.

[superfly]

I started with 5/8. Progressed to 6/8 and 7/8. Now, I don't have preffered size. I like them all. It might be easier thought, to start with 6/8, but I think the real diference is in the grind. It will be easier with something less than full hollow grind...

Nenad

[Lynn]

Guys,

Don't forget about all the wonderful resources contained right here and in the yahoo files, database and links sections. We have a ton of information for those interested in learning.

Lynn

[xman]

Hi Tom,

I started with a 5/8 Dubl Duck Special No.1 and a 5/8 Böker Tree razor. Both are double hollow and both provide outstanding shaves. I have since added a Wade & Butcher which, based on the spine thickness, would best be described as a 7/8, and a 3/8 Heljestrand to my regular rotation.

I would say that the 5/8 became the standard because it was a balance of interests. The gentleman shaver, unless using only a small azor for touching up, which is what I use mine for, will generally prefer the larger razor for the handling weight and feel during the shave. The lightest of mine, the 3/8 is a little strained to do the whole job. The manufacturer, will be looking to reduce the weight to bring the cost in line with a good price, thus reducing the weight. It's also less work to grind down less steel. The 5/8, as I see it, is a balance between what we usually want; a hefty razor that doesn't jump around because it's too light, and what we need; an affordable tool that gets the job done with the minimum effort on everybody in question, manufacturer and shaver.

I appreciate all my razors for what they do, but I suspect (these days) that a 6/8 spike would be what I would want to turn to most regularly. Since I haven't got one, I jump back and forth between the 7/8 and a 5/8 for full shaves and use the 3/8 or a 5/8 for trimming every other day or so. I'd like to try a 4/8 1/4 hollow or wedge as a sub for the 3/8, but those seem hard to find and I'm not in a good position to search for one for another couple months anyway. What I've got seems to be suiting me pretty well also so there's little drive and less need.

X

[canerunner]

I understand that there is a lot to learn when one decides to take up shaving with a straight razor. It's not a skill that most men in Europe and the North American continent see their fathers do as they grow up, like it was when I was a youngster. My dad used mostly DEs, but both of my grandfathers shaved with straights. I spent a lot of time with my grandparents when I was small, and I can remember watching each of my grandfathers shaving as I talked to them.

I can remember my grandfather honing his razors, and stropping them before every shave. I was able to observe what they did, although I was too young to try what they were doing. I learned, none the less. I also learned a lot of other things that I would use later in my life. Woodworking comes almost as second nature to me, and from that I learned a lot about sharpening tools properly.

I think that the real reason so many people have such a steep learning curve now is that they don't have the history of learning these skills from their ancestors. Now, everyone just buys throw away razors and shave cream in a can. There's nothing to learn, unless it's how to dispose of the used up article.

At some point in time, we have to step back from the throw-away world, and decide that some things are worth holding on to. There are things, and memories, and places that are worth keeping, regardless of how "old-timey" they seem. To me, shaving with a straight is one of those things. It brings back memories for me, and that alone is worth the learning curve. I also enjoy the luxury of taking my time and having a luxurious shave, which is something that is very special in this breakneck speed world.

The skills needed to care for and sharpen a razor aren't that hard to learn, unless one tries to rush them. That's a sure ticket to frustration. Time taken to pay attention, and learning to do the skill set correctly, will pay one back for years in enjoyment of simple pleasures.

It's simply attention to detail and careful preparation. It's worth the effort, I can assure you.

[Kees]

Originally Posted by EdinLA44

I'm not an expert on Arkansas stones but I believe they're pretty abrasive. From what I've read, they are around 1200 grit or less, so that is not good for touching up a razor. You need something around an 8000 or 12000 grit for that purpose. You might be able to find a used barber's hone on eBay for a good price.

Arkansas stones exist in various grit sizes. I have been using the Arkansas black extrafine stone for years. Only since reading and applying the advice from the SRP honemeisters I have been getting better results with them. The translucent Arkansas is supposed to be even finer but I haven't got experience with it. I would strongly recommend using water with the Arkansas stones as oil clogs up the pores much more and is harder to remove from the stone.

I am still considering buying a coticule or a Thuringian stone. I have put this on the backburner for a while as I am getting increasingly better results with my Arkansas stone. I believe Randydance has recently bought a Thuringian stone so he might be willing to share his experience with us.

[mparker762]

I'm not an expert in arkansas stones, but these guys are.

"Arkansas Novaculite stones are classified by specific gravity and not the size of the grain. The grain of the silica crystals that form Novaculite are essentially the same size, 3-5 microns, whether the stone is classified as Soft Arkansas or True Hard Arkansas. Using Specific Gravity Testing, Dan's Whetstone Company measures the density of their stones, that is the compactness of the grains bonded together. Therefore the harder stones would then have more grains than the softer stones. Since the grit size of Arkansas Novaculite does not widely vary, it is difficult to compare it with the grit sizes of man-made stones. Grit measurement standards for traditional man-made stones vary internationally. By U.S. grit standards, genuine Novaculite most closely relates to the 600-1200 grit size."

Essentially, the finer grades of arkansas stone have the same grit size as the coarser stones, but the abrasive grains are packed more tightly together so they don't cut as quickly. So they leave shallower grooves in the razor, but the grooves are the same width as the coarser stones. This is essentially the same thing that HandAmerican's supplier Hall's Pro Edge says.